Dog World news archive - February 2012

Dalmatian dilemma faces KC

03 Sep 2009 08:02

This article has 42 Comment(s)

WITHIN the next few weeks the Kennel Club will have to decide whether or not to register two Dalmatians who have a Pointer in their pedigree.
The bitches – aged two and three months – are 14 generations removed from the outcross, and said to be ‘99 per cent Dalmatian’.
The outcrossing was done to create Dalmatians with low uric acid, thus ridding them of a gene which makes them prone to kidney stones, bladder stones and gout.
Julie Evans, a championship show judge in the breed, has asked the KC to register the two bitches, but told DOG WORLD that she now intends to import them whether or not her application is approved.
She believes that one in four Dalmatians are affected by high levels of uric acid which she thinks was caused when an important gene was lost while breeders created the most desirable markings.
“The only thing left of this champion Pointer in these 14th-generation dogs is the gene the Dalmatian desperately needs,” Mrs Evans said. “The only way to introduce it was to outcross.

Heartbreaking


“The plan is to register them, but I’ve decided now that I’m going to go ahead and bring them in whether or not the KC agrees to register them. I am very concerned about the health of the breed. It is heartbreaking to see these dogs suffer and the problems can lead to a very painful death.”
A KC spokesman told DW this week: “In general terms we are very much in favour of improving health, but each case is taken on its individual merits.”
In general, it seems that most Dalmatian breeders and exhibitors are not in favour of the move. They feel that more scientific evidence is needed, and that the problem, which they feel has been exaggerated, can be controlled easily by diet. The issue will be discussed by the British Dalmatian Club (BDC) in October, but it is likely that by that time the KC will have made its decision.
Pat Wilson, former chairman of the BDC, said she feared what problems would be introduced to the breed by the Pointer.
“I am speaking from my own personal viewpoint, but are we at risk of introducing hip dysplasia?” she said. “Pointers are higher-rated for that. It would also encourage more orange and lemon flecks, dish faces and high hackney action.
“I have had Dalmatians since 1972 and can honestly say none of my dogs has ever had a problem with uric acid, mainly because I have never fed a high protein diet. I feed mainly fish and rice. Dogs might potentially have problems but it can be controlled, with diet and occasionally with medication.
“I read an article in a national newspaper which said dogs die a painful, lingering death but if you ring round, people say that’s not true. I think it’s all a storm in a teacup and that it would be a backward step to introduce these Dalmatians. I would be very reluctant to do so.”
BDC secretary Shelagh Stevenson said: “Dalmatians have the problem but not all present with it. Anything that could be done would be good, but I believe the whole matter needs more consideration and scientific evidence. However, we are not turning away from it. The breed clubs must discuss it properly and any progress would be good. But it needs to be done properly and scientifically proved.”
DW breed note writer Lynda Lewis, a member of both English Dalmatian clubs, said she also felt there was not enough scientific evidence.
“There are so many problems in the Pointer breed that I wonder if you get rid of one thing you might get something else,” she said. “I have never had this problem in my Dalmatians, and I have had them since the ‘70s.”
Many breeders are being influenced by the fact that the American Kennel Club (AKC) is refusing to register such Dalmatians, although some allege that there is a ‘political’ reason behind it.

Fourth generation


“The Board approved the registration two 31/32 Dalmatians – who had a Pointer in the fourth generation – in February 1981 at the request of the Dalmatian Club of America,” said an AKC spokesman. “It was done to address a uric acid problem in the breed which affected five per cent of dogs and one per cent of bitches.
“The DCA membership was not in agreement with the decision of its board and the DCA board subsequently requested that the AKC reverse its previous action. This was done in August 1981 and no progeny out of the dogs registered in 1981 were ever registered.”
The strength of feeling in the US led to the formation of an opposition pressure group, Genuine Dalmatians
“The whole matter is very political in the US,” Mrs Evans (Tyrodal) said. “But these Dalmatians are accepted in France. I can’t see the KC refusing to register them now.
“I’ve been liaising with Jeff Sampson and Diana Brooks-Ward at the KC, and the dogs will travel in January. Everything has been done – all the paperwork, all the way back to the Pointer. And their complete health records. The two bitches are waiting to be hip scored.
“The KC’s so-called closed register has only been in effect since the ‘30s – before then dogs were accepted with unknown parentage. Pointers have always been a part of the Dalmatian. It’s always been accepted that they are a strong part of the breed. The only issue is that Dalmatians are smaller in the US; if they’re over 24ins they are disqualified. Here we see 26ins every day of the week. But size-wise that would be sorted out in the first generation. The spots and markings on the dogs I want to bring in are as good as our Dalmatians here. That’s an old argument that doesn’t stand up any more.
“This would be the answer to a major health problem. Quite a few breeders will say they have never had the problem in their line, but what about pet people? If their dogs suffer from stones and it causes a blockage it can be extremely painful, and if it went unchecked it could cause a bladder to burst. Pet people are probably unaware that there is such a problem and wouldn’t know what was happening.
“You can’t really control it with diet. If a dog is predisposed to the problem, no diet on earth will help it. Anyway, why do restrictions have to be put on diet – feeding dogs low protein and putting them on medication isn’t normal.

Unpopular


“If I can do something about it I will, and I don’t care how unpopular it makes me. The matter is going to be discussed by the KC’s General Committee – but it’s only gone this far because they haven’t been able to brush me aside. I put forward the whole proposal and I want everything above board.”

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    1

    I can't see what the fuss is about. An Irish Water Spaniel was registered in the UK in 2005 that was only 2 generations removed from a Barbet outcross. This registration was carried out via reciprocal agreements with the French. The only disappointing thing about this is that the dog hasn't been used at stud, but other progeny from the mating have been used on the Continent. Show breeders must accept that healthy breeding is not just about health testing. They have got to realise that close breeding and breeding using a closed and shrinking gene pool is not a viable long term option. Regular infusions of fresh genetic material from other breeds has to be allowed to occur, together with the banning of line breeding and over use of stud dogs, to prevent the concentration of deleterious alleles in the population. The comments about introducing hip dysplasia show how little knowledge about genetics many show breeders have. Once again, the show breeders have shown that they are more concerned about looks than health.

    Posted at 08:24 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Whiptail | Report as inappropriate

    2

    One further thing, 1 pointer in a 14 generation pedigree means that it is 1 dog in a total of 16,384 ancestors. That is nearly 70% more than the total number of Irish Water Spaniel registrations since 1900. Come on, you cannot seriously be objecting to this, Dalmation people.

    Posted at 09:30 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Whiptail | Report as inappropriate

    3

    What I find disconcerting is that the Dalmatian people are saying the problem can be controlled by diet, surely the aim should be to eradicate the problem as simple 'control' will not prevent dogs from suffering the problem should a blip occur in their carefully controlled diet. We all know dogs can pick things up and eat them when out on their walks. The aim of every good dalmatian breeder should be to eradicate the problem and I fail to see why this request for registration should be refused. Nobody has to use the dogs nor their progeny in their breeding programme so who exactly will it effect. Yet again another case of the Show World not giving two hoots to health of pure bred dogs and thinking a closed gene pool that has demonstrated a serious flaw with the potential to cause pain and suffering to a living creature is the right way to go. Sorry Wrong!

    Posted at 10:06 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    mahooli | Report as inappropriate

    4

    on another point, why was it acceptable to register 5th generation bobtail boxers as pure bred, which I don't have an issue with but was not a health related issue, yet people argue over a 14th generation outcross in the dalmatian. So what really is more important, the length of a dogs tail or the desire to remove an inherited disease?

    Posted at 10:10 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    mahooli | Report as inappropriate

    5

    Here we go again, same old stories and lame excuses ! The " Nowt Wrong wi Ower Breed " WAKE UP, do all you possibly can to help the breed you purport to love. It has been the practice of GOOD breeders to introduce another breed to improve , wether it be health or looks or to widen the gene pool . Its nothing new so why start screaming now, just let the person get on with it, IF it works then its is to the benefit of all, if it doesnt then at leats the breeder tried. WHAT are you doing for your breed? WAY back when, Miss Anastasia Noble introduced Greyhound blood into her deerhounds ............. Most say it saved the breed. Bruce Cattanach introduced the " self Docking" gene into his boxers , He Tried and did well, the boxers from that cross now look like they should, what is the problem ? Many Older breeders , many now long gone did these "outcrosses " without even telling anyone, nowadays people are more open about what they do and should be encouraged and applauded.

    Posted at 12:17 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    6

    "And another thing" as they say, Just how many imported dogs where just exactly what the importer thought they where getting ? Anyone can say anything, it was all done on trust and to a certain extent still is . Do you really know what is/was hidden within that imported dogs bloodline or even if it was PURE bred, highly unlikely you say, BUT do you really know .

    Posted at 12:24 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    7

    Perhaps the KC would like to check the ancestory of some of the miniature and toy poodles imported to the UK and/or exhibited under the ATC rules. There are examples of toy and minitures having common ancestors as close as grandparents and mixtures of sizes throughout the pedigree. These dogs have been accepted by the KC seemingly without question as being the size they are registered as in their country of origin. I know they are all still poodles but there are different conditions believed to be inherited across the sizes and mixing them could complicate the issue especially if one did not realise there was this mix of sizes behind for example a stud dog. So should the KC accept these Dalmatians who are so many genertaions removed from the cross - of course they should.

    Posted at 13:59 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    poodlesrus | Report as inappropriate

    8

    Good luck - another here who can't see what the fuss is about. Most variety of animal at some time or other has gone to another breed and come back again to breed true. As it has been pointed out if a Boxer x Corgi can be accepted then this is just really not worth the fuss. The same old hysteria has been said with the Clumber /Cocker cross in Sweden - apparently it would cause all sorts of havoc in Clumbers as Cockers are apparently far less healthy than Clumbers !! Long live stockmanship - as that is what it is about rather than the purer than pure brigade. All dogs should be able to be "fit for function" (grin) without having to consider special diets, special exercise or doing anything else to keep them "healthy". Don't hide behind breed do's and don'ts - what that means is that the breed has problems that people put up with rather than getting on and biting the bullet and doing something about it. Bring on the hunting Dalmatians (vbg) a "no brainer" as one of the 'fore mentioned KC bods has said to me !

    Posted at 17:15 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Jackie | Report as inappropriate

    9

    I have Dalmatians, thankfully healthy, although the uric acid plays havoc with my lawn! I agree that the outcross evidence is not entirely conclusive. But I also agree that the bullet should be bitten. I have made this point before, but couldn't the KC somehow fund a selection of excellent breeders to perform the Dalmatian/Pointer outcrossing and monitor the results. It will take a good few generations for the desired effects of outcrossing to come through and the breeders would need financial support to raise generations of pups that may not easily find homes.

    Posted at 19:12 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    Spotty Muldoon | Report as inappropriate

    10

    Given the current disturbing trend the Pointatians (or should it be Dalmointers) would probably be in demand!

    Posted at 21:01 on 03 Sep 2009 by
    poodlesrus | Report as inappropriate

    11

    Testing is important to take genetic problems out of the breeding population and outcrosses are equally vital to put diversity in. Adding genetic diversity will make breeds less uniform but that is a price well worth paying for the health improvements achived. Careful outcrossing is an accepted part of pedigree breeding in other animials and it must become part of the dog world too. Outcrossing does not destroy a breed, it makes the breed stronger. The KC can only gain by registering these dogs.

    Posted at 00:12 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    12

    Testing is important to take genetic problems out of the breeding population and outcrosses are equally vital to put diversity in. Adding genetic diversity will make breeds less uniform but that is a price well worth paying for the health improvements achived. Careful outcrossing is an accepted part of pedigree breeding in other animials and it must become part of the dog world too. Outcrossing does not destroy a breed, it makes the breed stronger. The KC can only gain by registering these dogs.

    Posted at 00:12 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    13

    I have had Dals since 1978 and though feeding a premium food and lots of water have had TWO boys from top breeders who have blocked and has surgeries for stones at a cost of thousands of dollars. I pray the 2 dogs will be registered so the NUA program can move forward to help our beloved Dalmatians. See the dogs... there are no unusual 'colours' coming out and no extra displasia. I hope the club will give these 99% Dalmatians the chance to show what they can do.

    Posted at 15:56 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    cramerdal | Report as inappropriate

    14

    Its about time these dogs were accepted as dalmatians, they ARE dalmatians. Most outcrosses are considered pure after only 4 or 5 generations. These Dalmatians are 12 and 13 generations into it. Maintaining with food, water, exercise, ect. is all fine but what about the dogs that block with crystals or stones? I believe they are WAY off on their estimates of just how many have problems, at the cost of the owner. I have a stone former. He has blocked twice and both times he had to have surgery that flushed the stone back into his bladder. He is not in the statistics of how many have problems. How many more like him are out there? Its time the Kennel clubs stand up and do the right thing for the health of the dog.

    Posted at 17:33 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    vickiee | Report as inappropriate

    15

    I have recently lost my 3rd Dal bitch to kidney decease - the end result of constant crystal formation in the bitch!!!

    Posted at 17:51 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    Sparkle | Report as inappropriate

    16

    Having owned and bred dalmatians for a number of years and not once having had one single dog from my breeding ever form crystals because yes they are given a care sheet specifically telling them NOT to feed premium foods as they are like poison to a dalmatian I have never once had one single person ever say their dog has had or formed crystals and the 3 boys I have owned two entire one not have ever had any problems. To claim 25% off all dalmatians are affected is a statistic I would like to see backed by statistics backed by the dalmatian club off this country. Mrs Evans is not a authority on dalmatians and contradicts herself on numerous occasions on her own website.

    Posted at 18:03 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    spotsforever | Report as inappropriate

    17

    What a difference a year makes. PDE actually gave us a huge favour it opened our eyes to an awful lot of hidden problems. Six months ago I was ridiculed for mentioning outcrosses (what a sin to allow our breeds to be tarnished with un-pure blood) At last some people are actually seeing the sense of outcrosses. Next we will hopefully see the use of health screened unregistered pedigree dam/sires crossed with registered dams/sires whose pups would then be allowed on to the register after being health screened to expand the gene pools. Paul

    Posted at 18:10 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    neutral | Report as inappropriate

    18

    should have said same breed unregistered Paul

    Posted at 18:11 on 04 Sep 2009 by
    neutral | Report as inappropriate

    19

    For someone to even suggest that the stones are not painful to the dogs is absurd. I have two dals currently, and both formed stones. Both were on an "approved" dalmatian diet, bith were given lots of water, and both are let out every 4 hours to urinate. One dal has had 3 stone surgeries and a surgery to reroute his urinary tract so he can now just pass the stones instead of blocking. How is that acceptable to people? He also urinates blood on a regular basis when he passes stones, and cries the whole time they are passing. But I guess this is okay and just part of owning a dal, right? The crosses need to be regsitered so we can allow our dals to live like all other dogs.

    Posted at 00:53 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    shelley | Report as inappropriate

    20

    Apparently incidence of urate stone disease in Dals is zero in the kennels of prominent breeders, and rather significant elsewhere (like Syringomyelia in Cavaliers). And the prominent breeders are not concerned about the suitability of the breed for pet owners. When I saw PDE, I thought the reference to Eugenics was inappropriate and unwarranted. But now the prominent breeders reveal their true colors, and it is not pretty and not honorable. Responsible breeders? not in the mainstream of the BDC or the DCA. More study? of what?

    Posted at 05:12 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    Ronald | Report as inappropriate

    21

    All arguments against accepting the two Dalmatian puppies, result of an outcorss 12 generations ago, are ridiculous. The fact that this line is free of the uric acid problem is more that enough scientific proof. Furthermore, the comment that "hackney action" might be brought in by these two puppies is laughable. A good pointer does not have hakney action. ! Dorothea Penizek

    Posted at 10:05 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    Dorli | Report as inappropriate

    22

    Well it seems all barr one on here are in favour of registering these dogs. As I have said before, no-one will be forced to use these dogs, nor their lines, in their own breeding programme so what really is the problem? No disease should be 'controlled' it should be eradicated where possible, after all, hip dysplasia can be 'controlled' by using pain killers, dog carts or hip surgery, blindness can be 'controlled' by not moving the furniture in your home, hernia's can be 'controlled' by having the hernia's repaired. None of these solutions should be acceptable to anyone who truely cares about dogs. It seems that the SHOW people are at it again, pretending that there isn't really a problem and trying to carry on with the status quo, sorry that argument was lost last year.

    Posted at 12:43 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    mahooli | Report as inappropriate

    23

    The only people against it keep saying "we need more scientific data" and keep saying about All these pointer faults ... its 14 generations ago not a new backcross!! Apparently "the majority" of dal people are against it !! Are thay ??? who says ! The backcross project is full of science and facts Unlike the "experts" in the uk who have little or no science other than that they may have bred a few litters. Why does that give them the right to say "Most dal folk are against it!" and to say stones are not painful is just downright ignorant - shame on you! These are the people making the descisions. I wonder who on earth you think you are to make these comments - almost as good as at Crufts the breed "representative" saying dalmatians dont need much excercise! When these representatives start testign theior own dalmatians to prove they dont have hip dosplacia then they may ciomment on weather any dog will improve or make worse the stock we already have !!! Lets hope that the scientists and the ones who actually know what they are talking about will speak out and approve these dalmatians.

    Posted at 13:14 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    SusanBib | Report as inappropriate

    24

    The more I think about these issues the more I see connections. Let's break things down. A genetic related health issue that is hard to screen out but easily resolved by beinging in outside blood. Breed clubs who deny the problem, blame "puppy farmers" or "pet breeders" and generally adopt a "we know best" attitude. The KC that probably does want to do the right thing but lacks the moral authority to push the obvious answer through. I become ever more convinced that we need the KC to lead on health issues and set clear objectives. The breed clubs would have the role of meeting these objectives and comming up with specific actions. If the breed clubs refused the KC could go past them to deal direct with health focused breeders. The problem is that the undemocratic nature of the KC denies it the moral authority to face down old school vested interests.

    Posted at 17:05 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    25

    Excactly what happens is Sweden, the breed clubs are given objectives, these are based on health surveys and population genetic studies, the clubs then work together to achieve the goals set by the Kennel Club They work towards lowering the average COi of the breed and rigorous health testing is of course a high priority, in my breed the clubs take this very seriously and are justifiably proud of their results. The Cois of prospective matings are published and they are much much lower than ours without sacrificing type

    Posted at 18:53 on 05 Sep 2009 by
    tictac | Report as inappropriate

    26

    It is hard to disagree with both nemesis and convict.

    Posted at 08:15 on 06 Sep 2009 by
    Fifi | Report as inappropriate

    27

    maybe it's easy for us all to have opinions galore when it isn't our breed. The introduction of "new" blood surely also adds the prospect of "new" problems. Having said that - sometimes we need to move forward and not be reactionary

    Posted at 22:31 on 06 Sep 2009 by
    hazydaisy | Report as inappropriate

    28

    Well I have watched with bated breath at what I see as blatant abuse of registraion in some new breeds in the UK, its obvious some are being imported as imposters, lets look at some toy breeds, even a blind man can see they have been derived from a cross of maltese and the alleged pedigree. they are originating from Eastern Europe and Italy , its a scandal yet they are being given credence by judges. New blood is great when its declared. otherwise it makes a mockery of registration and health screening. I am appalled that some TOP exhibitors are being allowed to get away with such a damn scam....

    Posted at 23:15 on 06 Sep 2009 by
    Fifi | Report as inappropriate

    29

    I agree with tictac. Scandinavian countries and France have a much more rigorous approach to health and breeding practices and I don't understand why the KC is so entrenched. We need top geneticists to work with breed clubs and breeders to improve the health prospects of pedigree dogs with known and identified problems. If the breed standard has to change as a result, so be it. As I understand it, the gene responsible for Dalmatian spotting is also the gene responsible for high uric acid secretion. If there's one thing many Dal breeders (and judges) in the UK are hung up on, it is "perfect spotting". If the price of the coat is repeated surgeries as described by some of the commentators here, then that is clearly too high a price to pay.

    Posted at 10:31 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    Spotty Muldoon | Report as inappropriate

    30

    I underestand the KC has taken legal advice and has been told that mandatory health testing before breeding could not be enforced as it would not hold up in court. I ask who would risk being hung in the court of public opinion by taking the KC to the law courts? Testing will come via new regulations from the government or europe. Sad the the KC can't lead on this and will be forced to follow.

    Posted at 11:50 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    31

    I underestand the KC has taken legal advice and has been told that mandatory health testing before breeding could not be enforced as it would not hold up in court. I ask who would risk being hung in the court of public opinion by taking the KC to the law courts? Testing will come via new regulations from the government or europe. Sad the the KC can't lead on this and will be forced to follow.

    Posted at 11:50 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    32

    So that means they cannot enforce the already in place compulsory testing before registration for Irish and Irish red and white setters? I think they are just making it up. They are a private club and if they say this is what you do then you have to do it if you use their services. They are just woprried of decreased income from registrations, pure and simple.

    Posted at 12:55 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    mahooli | Report as inappropriate

    33

    The KC is spineless, toothless, brainless. If it were a dog, it would be put out of its misery.

    Posted at 19:22 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    Spotty Muldoon | Report as inappropriate

    34

    I am cannot believe the ignorance of the comments on the registering of these cross bred Dalmatians. Spotting is not the be all and end all of Dalmatian breeding, as someone has mentioned, health, temperament and soundness is of paramount importance, good spotting the icing on the cake. Unfortunately due to the Disney film and the indiscriminate breeding that took place during late 90's early 2000, has produced thousands with pedigrees not worth the paper they are written on. The internet has not helped, you only have to look at the website's with Dalmatians at stud, stunning pedigree, ring and ask, most have never been heard of and should be castrated, but the KC registered them so the public think they have a pedigree dog to make money with. I have had Dalmatians for nearly 40 years, have never had stone forming Dalmatians, have never fed special diets, nor do I know of any well known breeders who have had the vast quantities of stone forming Dalmatians that is talked about in both these comments and in other areas. I have however had many years of experience dealing with Dalmatians from puppy farmers and back street breeders who have had the problem. It is possible to control it with a very simple diet which is not rocket science, is not expensive, unlike some of the presciption diets. There are very few health issues with a well bred Dalmatian, occasional deafness, as associated with white coated breeds, responsible breeders will test, irresponsible breeders out to make a fast buck or simply are unaware of the problem will not, this needs to be addressed before bringing in other problems from other breeds.

    Posted at 23:05 on 07 Sep 2009 by
    Nichy | Report as inappropriate

    35

    In a 13th generation NUA Dal pedigree, even if its NUA x NUA, puts the pointer as 1 of 16,382 dogs & you would blame the pointer for a problem!!! No matter puppy farm bred or not, ALL Dalmatians & only Dalmatians, have 2 copies of the mutant gene for high uric acid. Look on the BDC website forum (health) their seems to be enough pet people asking for help on urate problems there! Royal Canin have even brought out a special food for urate problems in dals! dont think they would do that if they could not sell it! Just because you have not produced it does not mean other people dont have problems with their beloved dals & the cost of vet treatment in this climate must be terrible for owners - But what about the dogs that do suffer? are you going to deny them? My mother had a rescue dal (from well known breeding) he had to go into kennels for a month under very unfortunate circumstances - anyway the end result was..the staff must not have noticed he was not urinating properly - whether it went on for 1 or 2 days we will never know, but he was put to bed in his kennel for the night, when the staff whent to let him out the next morning his bladder had burst, pee & blood everywhere! he was of cause dead, I am crying at the remembrance of all this, I cannot bear to think how that poor boy suffered! I cannot go on any more - though I would like to say so much more!

    Posted at 12:59 on 08 Sep 2009 by
    Sparkle | Report as inappropriate

    36

    I find it odd that the people who say NUA Dals needs more scientific evidence cite nothing to support their side - like that BDC person who said more science is needed and then countered the idea that stones can lead to a painful death by saying "if you ring round you find that's not true". Who needs vet textbooks or scientific literature? Just "ring round" - All is well.

    Posted at 14:23 on 08 Sep 2009 by
    Sparkle | Report as inappropriate

    37

    This is scientific by,,,, Dr Robert Schaible, PhD: Those individuals concerned whether this one Pointer may introduce untoward health problems in the Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer cross may consider the following reasoning why that should not be a significant concern. 1. Since only one Pointer was used, that individual contributed only one gene copy (of his two copies) to his Descendants. The other gene copy for any trait, healthy or unhealthy, originated from the Dalmatian dam (Lady Godiva). As they say, "it takes two to tango". If the gene from the Pointer coded for a dominant health problem then all of the progeny would exhibit that. Neither the Pointer nor the progeny are reported to have exhibited any dominant health problems. If the Pointer carried and contributed a recessive gene to his progeny, then again, "it takes two to tango" and the other copy must have come from the Dalmatian lineage, especially since in subsequent generations only Dalmatians were used. The resultant "disease" if evident (none have been evident to date after 12 generations of breeding) would have originated just as equally, if not more likely, from the Dalmatian than the Pointer parental lineage. 2. Of the ~350 known canine diseases, the large majority exhibit a polygenic inheritance pattern. A few diseases, like the Dalmatian specific uric acid defect, follow a single gene inheritance pattern. After 12 generations of breeding, it is known that about 0.02% of the DNA of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross Descendants is not the same as AKC registered Dalmatians. We know that this small percentage includes three genes on chromosome #3 that are closely linked, and one of those is responsible for normal uric acid metabolism. The others are thought to be so-called housekeeping genes that deal with intracellular processes only. The selection pressure placed by the breeder's choices over the 12 generations selected for these three closely linked genes, and not others. Whether the residual DNA even codes for other genes, and whether those genes may or may not code for health problems per se, is unknown. However, the likelihood that this small amount of residual Pointer DNA codes only for a unique Pointer breed related disease is quite low. If that were the case, the disease would either have to be dominant (which is extremely unlikely as discussed in #1), or the disease would have to be recessive, in which case the Dalmatian lineage would have had to contribute the other genetic component. 3. Current Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross are at the 12th generation. In the 12th generation, the Pointer is one of 4,096 dogs, thereby contributing 0.0244% of the genetic material in that generation to the next generation - the 11th generation. From the perspective of the entire 12-generation pedigree, the Pointer is one of 8,190 dogs and contributes 0.0122% of the genetic material to the progeny. These percentages appear miniscule when framed in comparison to the sire and the dam of a litter that each contributes 50% of their genetic material to their get. 4. If the Pointer were carrying a recessive health defect, and if the LUA/HUA Descendants carried that defect forward, then the only way that it could be expressed is by breeding a Descendant to another carrier. If breedings in successive generations only to AKC registered Dalmatians produced a recessive defect or disease, then it is at least equally attributable that the recessive trait originated from the Dalmatian parental lineage, if not more so given the overwhelming percentage of AKC Dalmatians in the pedigree versus the single Pointer. 5. Breeding an LUA Descendant to an LUA Descendant is one theoretical way to uncover a recessive gene carrier. Again, only one Pointer was used, so you would have to theorize that the Pointer contributed the exact same recessive gene copy to every one of his get. That may or may not be true. If one used identical twins (which have never been produced) it is theoretically possible to have the exact same copy culprit recessive gene passed to the get. The mathematical probabilities become even more unlikely when one considers that most canine diseases result from multiple genes - polygenic inheritance. The same Pointer - the only Pointer ever used - would have had to contribute the exact same copy (recessive, diseased) of each of the genes responsible for a specific health defect, to each of his get, and those get would have to be mated in order to make the homozygous condition to produce the disease. The odds are extremely unfavorable for that to happen. 6. Matings of 12th generation LUA Descendants to produce the 13th generation LUA progeny, even if done as LUA x LUA, puts the Pointer as 1 of 16,382 dogs and results in 0.006% of the genome originating from the Pointer. The likelihood of passing any relevant genetic material that may cause disease from the Pointer is approaching zero in this scenario. If one gene (out of the estimated 20,000 canine genes) spontaneously mutated and caused disease, the chance could be estimated as 1 in 20,000 or 0.005%. Thus if an unanticipated disease presents in the 13th generation (or higher) Descendants, the attribution could be equally argued to be the Pointer, spontaneous mutation, or chance alone. 7. Lastly, it is important to point out that LUA/HUA Descendants at the 12th generation may have significant common ancestor effects. Depending on the pedigree, there can be as many as 50 crosses to popular sires such as CH. Coachman's Chuck-A-Luck and CH. Count Miquel of Tuckaway. From the perspective of estimating probabilities on pedigree analysis of specific traits (healthy or unhealthy), these popular ancestors may have up to a 50 fold chance of impacting that trait than a single ancestor, or in particular the single Pointer that is 12 or more generations back in the pedigree.

    Posted at 15:12 on 08 Sep 2009 by
    Krusty | Report as inappropriate

    38

    What's the arguement against registering these dogs? If it's that the pointer genes might introduced health problems that were not there previously then, surely, they would have shown up by now. The arguement that the Dalmation does not need this cross is a non-arguement. You'll stack people up on both sides and neither side will convince the other. What people arguing that the Dalmation does not need the cross are really saying is that they'll move heaven and earth to keep the breed pure. That approach is wrong headed. No amount of health testing and careful breeding will ever subsitute the need for greater genetic diversity - that requires careful outcrossing. Being hung up about dogs that are 99% of your breed just shows a total misunderstanding of genetics. It smacks of fanaticism and fanatics never listen to reasoned arguement.

    Posted at 16:12 on 08 Sep 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    39

    Thank you for the science , convict 225 spot on as usual, Sparkle so sorry for the memory that will never leave you, to the breeder wishing to register these dogs , I wish you well, to the 40 year breeder who has never had a problem spare a thought for those that have, the anguish, and the loss. Not one single perfect spot or red rosette or pure breeding is worth it. They will be remembered for their contibution, what will you be remembered for ? Dogs that must be fed differently otherwise they will suffer ,dogs that must have surgery to have any quality of life or do you perhaps think everyone is making it up or maybe they all got their pups from the wrong source and quite frankly even if they did they will be looking to you as a responsible breeder to address the situation and quite simply to produce healthy dogs, not to hand out a bag of special food with each puppy and explain if you dont do this the dog i have just sold you as a family pet will suffer painfull illness Not good enough

    Posted at 21:20 on 08 Sep 2009 by
    tictac | Report as inappropriate

    40

    It can be said that there is some kind of relationship between the gene for HUA and spotting, explaining how in breeding for better spots the HUA gene was inadvertently selected., But backcross breeders have shown that this relationship is not necessary. In other words, there is a tendency for backcross (LUA) dogs to have smaller less distinct spots, but not all do. Backcross breeders only ask that they be allowed to compete on equal footing. It is likely that the genetic relationship is one of "proximity", meaning the genes tend to get selected together, rather than there being any functional relationship between UA level and spotting. If the LUA Dals are at a disadvantage in appearance, then they won't be successful in the show ring. It has also been said that the Dals in the show ring generally have spots larger that called for in the breed standard. So smaller spots are actually more correct.

    Posted at 07:18 on 09 Sep 2009 by
    Ronald | Report as inappropriate

    41

    "Dodgy" spotting can come in any litter of Dalmatians. It is ludicrous to blame ticky coats on backcrosses. I agree with tictac, not a single spot is worth jeoparadising long-term health. If the people in the breed are genuinely interested in soundness, then they are going to have to sacrifice something - perhaps only temporarily, while new blood settles. Surely it is better to sacrifice something that doesn't harm the dog one way or the other. We're not talking about Dalmatians with no spots, just a bit of unevenness here and there. As they age, most Dals get a bit ticky anyway.

    Posted at 11:27 on 09 Sep 2009 by
    Spotty Muldoon | Report as inappropriate

    42

    SPOTSFOREVER SAYES.... Mrs Evans is not a authority on dalmatians and contradicts herself on numerous occasions on her own website. Well I have just looked on her website! She as bred, shown, judged, worked & owned the breed for over 40 years (I think that is an authority on the breed by anyones standard)& cant find anything but a good outlook on health & no contradictions on the site! Souds like jealousy to me!! Whats your experiance?

    Posted at 21:30 on 16 Sep 2009 by
    Krusty | Report as inappropriate