Dog World news archive - February 2012

Members thwart Cavalier health plans

26 Mar 2009 08:57

This article has 186 Comment(s)

A BID by the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club to halt the spread of syringomyelia (SM) in the breed has been thwarted.
At last weekend’s AGM, the committee wanted to include a clause in its code of ethics – similar to those concerning heart and eye-testing protocol – recommending that breeders MRI scan dogs before using them at stud.
An initial motion was passed, but later members asked for the vote to be taken again because they felt there had not been enough discussion and that some people had not understood the proposal.
This was agreed and this time the motion was lost by a heavy majority.


Under scrutiny


The breed has been under scrutiny since the programme Pedigree Dogs Exposed showed Cavaliers suffering from the painful condition SM.
After the AGM, chairman Lesley Jupp said the committee had been ‘very disappointed’ by the outcome of the vote.
At the start of the meeting it was reported that Margaret Carter – who featured on the BBC programme talking about SM – had been the only person nominated to join the committee, but that she had withdrawn her nomination. Three vacancies have still to be filled. This was followed by the committee’s proposal to add the SM recommendations to the club’s code of ethics.
Under new rules, the Kennel Club has drawn up the code and allows each breed club to suggest additions. At first the motion was passed by 25 votes to 15, with nine abstentions. But a little while later discussion became heated when members demanded that this vote should be taken again. Some said they had not heard what was said and thus not known what they were voting for. 
Under some pressure, Mrs Jupp agreed that a vote could be taken on an amendment to remove the SM recommendations from the code. This was carried by 37 votes.
Afterwards Mrs Jupp said: “We wanted to bring in a clause in our code. We have guidelines for eyes and hearts and we wanted to include them for SM. Breeding stock is supposed to be MRI scanned – these are recommendations, not stipulations. It would be in line with our eyes and heart recommendations.
“We are very disappointed that this was not passed – and by such a considerable majority.”
Asked why such a recommendation would be so unpopular, Mrs Jupp said: “Anyone could hazard a guess.”
Mrs Carter, now a controversial figure within the club’s membership, was present at the meeting.
“I didn’t speak. I wasn’t going to act as a catalyst for anything,” she said on Tuesday. “Anything that happened was not initiated in any way by me.
“The committee was wholeheartedly behind the motion and the chairman said it was important that owners health-check their dogs and it was their responsibility to do so. To be fair, the committee is trying to take things forward but it is being beaten.”

Media training


It is understood that the treasurer’s report showed that the special general meeting held to oust Mrs Carter from the committee had cost the club £2,082. There was an additional expenditure of £1,147 which paid for the committee to be trained on how to deal with questions from the media following the SGM.

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    1

    Well if that attitude hasn't just proved Jemima Harrison right. What is the matter with people, no wonder the show world and dog breeding are under the spot light. A sad day for pedigree dogs. Everyone who voted against the motion should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

    Posted at 10:04 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    2

    Maybe the Cavalier Breeders have been swamped by the Exaggerated Claims about the SM problem being in Cavalier Breed. It is NOT CONFINED to the Cavalier Breed,there are about 10 other Breeds also suffering from SM. The Claim that the Cavaliers have Large Brains ,there is NO SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION to confirm this Statement. There is on-going Research at the moment in America ,comparing the BRAIN VOLUMN of Cavaliers and Other Small Breeds . Even the Numbers of Cavaliers with SM are not known , the Figures given have been Based on Clinical Cases seen by Neurologists. The Figures from the Genetic Research in Canada in their Data Base are ,and this could be world wide Cavalier Figures . Number of Dogs with DNA 1546 540CM/SM This is interesting of those 385 MRI were confirmed with the Problem 163 Mri Scanned were clear of the condition. To answer beckyness ,do you know that the EBV Scheme has run into Legal Problems I am not a Cavalier Breeder ,and it's not often I don't agree with the Club , but at the moment so little is known about the complexities of SM Problem,that I can't see why there shoud be Breeding Guidelines for it. I really feel that more should be understood about SM ,before it is included in THE Club's Breeding Guidelines Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 11:26 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    3

    I don't think the fact that this condition occurs in other breeds is at all relevant. If there was the slightest chance that any dog of mine could be affected with this condition, i would want to be testing for it. I wouldn't need to figure out "the complexities" or wait until there were sufficient(by who's reckoning) numbers of dogs affected before i tested! How this testing couldn't even be added to "guidelines" is baffling.

    Posted at 13:09 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    4

    I breed and show dogs, not the Cavalier. I am SICK AND TIRED of Cavalier breeders bringing dog breeding and showing into disrepute!! Ok, what if SM is not confined to the Cavalier??? using this as a reason not to MRI scan Cavaliers is illogical!!! MRI scaning is the best tool breeders have at the moment - use it!! I have many friends in the show world and the words Cavalier breeder leave a bad taste in their mouths also. CLEAN UP YOUR BACKYARD AND DO US ALL A FAVOUR!!!!!!!!!

    Posted at 14:49 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Loveslife | Report as inappropriate

    5

    In addition to the above post... I realise some Cavalier breeders do scan, THANKYOU, I don't want to 'tarnish you all with the same brush' my apologies to those who do.

    Posted at 14:58 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Loveslife | Report as inappropriate

    6

    I agree that the cavie people have just managed to vindicate everything that Jemima Harrison said about them. What does this say to the public? If this gets into the national papers they will have a field day and I for one am mad at the cavie people for not taking this seriously. We are trying to promote ourselves as responisble breeders and they are just trashing the good work that has been carried out so far. Mrs Jupp should have stuck to her guns and stated that if they had really not heard what was being said they should have spoken up at the time not later after all I would imagine that the discussion had happened prior to the first vote. As Beckyess said they should be ashamed of themselves.

    Posted at 15:01 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    hounder | Report as inappropriate

    7

    Doubt that they know shame,they'll hold their heads high and keep trying to shove SM under the table. Where is reality for them? The sweet CKCS will be taken care of by dedicated breeders not by these shams.

    Posted at 16:14 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Patz | Report as inappropriate

    8

    Agree totally with the above comments - it seems that people are happy to let their dogs be used at stud, take the money and to hell with the consequences. On another "point of procedure" - surely once a motion has been carried that is it - is it allowed to go back and have a revote? If that is the case there could be an election for a post of say secretary, and then if the members didn't like it they could keep having another vote until they got the person they wanted!!!!! It seems totally bizarre that a re-vote was allowed. If the members had not liked the wording they should have proposed an amendment immediately - then they would have voted on that. The amendment having been carried would then become the "proposal". Perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong.

    Posted at 16:23 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Downstream | Report as inappropriate

    9

    As I explained previously, I have never been a Cavalier Breeders nor a Breeder of any type of Dog,but could I just ask were the Cavalier Club Members allowed a Discussion about this Motion . How much time was given to discuss it. I don't think it is understood what a MRI Scan entails for a Cavalier. According to the Kennel Club the MVD Heart Problem is by far the Biggest Killer for Cavaliers. There has been ,no Research into the Long Term Effects of the Sedation/Anaesthetics before the MRI Scans are given. Will the Cavaliers have an earlier appearance of their MVD as a result of those Anaesthetics for MRI Scans ,nobody knows, Was this discussed on Sunday, this is not like the Cavaliers having a Heart or an Eye Test. ? If no discussion was allowed before the Motion was Passed, then it should have been. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 17:11 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    10

    There has been no research into sedation/anaesthesia before hip x-raying, but people in many breeds still carry out that procedure before they consider breeding their dogs. If sedation/anaesthesia is likely to bring on this heart problem earlier wouldn't that be a good thing long term, because dogs with the problem could be eliminated from the breeding stock? I completely see what you are getting at Bet, but i think the risk of sedation is outweighed by these terrible diseases.

    Posted at 17:34 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    11

    The proposal to add MRI screening for SM to the Cavalier Club's Code of Ethics came from the National Club Committee and they should be given credit for that. But for the acceptance of the proposal to be overturned in the way that it was is shameful. Yet another example of people using bullying tactics to protect their own interests and further proof that the reform of dog breeding cannot come from within the current system.

    Posted at 17:38 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Carol F | Report as inappropriate

    12

    Kaleta, I guess you have never had the Many Tears of finding 4 Cavaliers who had died in their Sleep at a young age because of the Heart Trouble that afflicts the Cavalier Breed The Cavalier Breed is the only Breed that MVD effects at such a young age . Did you know that about 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmer by 5 years of Age. That means that of the 11,000 Cavaliers Registered last year by the Kennel Club ,in 5 years time around 6,000 of them will have a Heart Muemer. Many Cavaliers die between 7-8 years of age. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 17:44 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    13

    Carol F ,maybe you can tell me ,was there a Discussion allowed ,before the Motion was put to the Vote. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 18:07 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    14

    Suggesting something in a code of ethics means it is not mandatory. It would be ignored by those who didn't want to do it anyway, so why didn't they just let it pass?

    Posted at 18:29 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Hazel | Report as inappropriate

    15

    Unbelievable that any breed club susceptible to SM should not have scanning in its code. This head in the sand attitude will cause much suffering to future generations of dogs, and in the case of cavaliers, their media course, seems to have taught them nothing! What excellent publicity they could have achieved had they been the first UK breed club to add this to their code of conduct. It is just common sense to scan studs of at risk breeds.

    Posted at 18:32 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    samsmum | Report as inappropriate

    16

    Bet,I do not follow the logic that MRI scans should not be performed because the anaesthetic/sedation MIGHT and I repeat MIGHT have an impact on hearts. This argument has no FOUNDATION!!!!!!!!

    Posted at 19:15 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Loveslife | Report as inappropriate

    17

    I rarely comment on these articles, but what I have seen first hand in the cavalier world sickens me. I worked in a cav kennel for a couple of years whilst in uni showing and looking after the dogs, uni funds and lifestyle were hardly right to bring a new show puppy into my life. What can I say, the breed stole my heart. I graduated, got a steady dog friendly job, and left the kennel with a cav under my arm. My pride and joy. As she hit middle age she developed a grade 5 heart murmour, pyometra hit at the same time and the combination of the two very nearly (and should have) killed her. The heart ache has been unbearable as my once fun loving dog now spends 23hrs a day on the sofa. PLEASE TEST YOUR DOGS. If it comes down to money- which we all know it shouldn't but I have come accross many in the cav world where it does, you will make back the costs in the first litter/ stud fee. Forget the politics and look at the little dog sat on the sofa with you, why wont you allow them to have the good health they deserve. For those cav breeders that do health checks, a resounding thank you. Please keep up the fantastic work.

    Posted at 19:17 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    claire | Report as inappropriate

    18

    I think my email was sent without my permission so I shall continue....and NONE on medication at all (not even one of the 14 year olds with Cushings.) I did have my 3 year old boy MRI'd and he is an "A" after a full body scan and not a mini. HOWEVER, to believe that there is any assurance he will not produce an affected dog is foolish. He has the same probability of producing a "C" or even a "D" as 2 dogs graded "C" have in producing an "A." And so....that is the reason there should be no rush to mandatory testing. Any scientist with common sense and with no agenda will tell you that such a move would be both foolish and unnecessary but would serve to decrease the gene pool. The consequences of that would truly be disasterous. By the way, I would love to know the breeds of those with other breeds who know so much about the proper protocol for my breed. I would love to know what research your club has initiated to wipe out your health issues and what requirements you have placed on yourselves before being allowed to breed. In my heart, I believe most Cavalier breeders, with the exception of the millers or backyard breeders, have always been more forthcoming than any other breed I have ever encountered. I have contacted breeder of Goldens and Bernese Mountain dogs looking for puppies for friends (checking out the breeders) and not one has ever offered information on the prevelance of Cancer in those breeds. I will take a Cavalier with a heart murmur who lives until 12 and dies peacefully in his sleep over some other breed with cancer. Treating cancer drains your finances and in all probability you end up with a dead dog along with an empty bank account. So....I'll take my wonderful Cavalier breed and do all I can to raise money and help find a way to screen for all genetic defects. Phyllis Lasser Welmforth Cavaliers, USA

    Posted at 19:34 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Phyllis | Report as inappropriate

    19

    Phyllis you said ,,,,,He has the same probability of producing a "C" or even a "D" as 2 dogs graded "C" have in producing an "A." .... what evidence have you for this statement? You said your dog was 3 years old when he had an MRI -some dogs develop SM at 5 years. EBVs will give a much better breeding programme and this needs MRI information, especially for older dogs. Penny Knowler

    Posted at 19:55 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    SPK | Report as inappropriate

    20

    Surely without mandatory testing you're going to have no idea of what is going on and how things are progressing? All you will have is a bunch of dog people protecting their own interests with their own theories and hand-picked bits of research.

    Posted at 20:07 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    21

    My breed has had compulsory health tests for over 30 years. No dog is allowed to enter the gene pool until clear health is proved, even if the past five generations on either side were clear. And we're not even a breed struck with health problems. This is upheld in our tiny gene pool, and I'm proud of that fact. I'm proud of the work of our breed club and breeders. Breeding stoped for three years whilst new stock was imported to widen the gene pool, surely with the numbers in the cavs you can pause breeding efforts for 12 months whilst answers to your questions are being found. We have done all we medically can to breed healthy dogs. Stop the excuses, think about the dogs. Act now.

    Posted at 20:31 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    claire | Report as inappropriate

    22

    In response to Phyllis, surely the Cavalier club wouldn't be calling for MRI's if the results were futile. It may not give all the information one would like but SM is hereditory and surely MRI's are reducing it's risk!!!

    Posted at 20:46 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Loveslife | Report as inappropriate

    23

    At the Cavalier Club AGM who mentioned compulsory health testing. I heard that this was mentioned and was part of the Report from Health Sub-Committee: "The committee are hoping that you will vote today to include Appendix C in our Code of Ethics. This will insert the guideline that dogs and bitches to be used for breeding should be MRI scanned. It is anticipated that these guidelines will be updated as research and the new MRI Scanning scheme are incorporated. The Club has written Letters of Support to the Kennel Club Charitable Trust for Sarah Blott who wishes to conduct research to establish more accurate figures for the incidence of Syringomyelia."

    Posted at 20:48 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    24

    Oh my, what sad news this is here. I cannot believe that the majority of the membership present voted against including a recommendation of SM screening in the COE. If the club agrees with the recommendation of screening for MVD, so it should be with SM. MVD isn't going away and neithor is SM and the time is now to accept the reality and rise to the challenge. I am coming around to the realization that the KC needs to step in and require some sort of genetics/veterinary oversight to protect the dogs and the gene pool. It is a shame that those club members entrusted to protect the breed failed to do so. I cannot even fathom a valid reason for the health committee's recommendation to be refused... on what grounds?

    Posted at 21:29 on 25 Mar 2009 by
    Regina | Report as inappropriate

    25

    As I posted first I would like to comment on the posting that stated what has our beed done to help eradicate the relevant problems that we have. As with many breed you will have those that do and those that don't but we have health funds set up, people will affected dogs have been open and honest about their dogs (there is a champion in our breed that is affected) however, sadly it is down to individuals as to what they should do and as I said at the beginning, there are those that do and those that don't. However, for me personally I would never use an untested dog on my bitches. I don't want to introduce anything into my lines that I don't want and hopefully minimise those things that currently have no difinitive test. From what I can gather this was a proposal for a recommendation that all Stud Dogs, so not even all breeding stock, to be scanned for this disorder. You can't say you don't have a problem if you don't test for it because otherwise how do you know?

    Posted at 08:09 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    26

    I am a UK Cavalier Club Memeber, I was sent the Agenda for Sunday's AGM ,there was no mention about the Inclusion of the MRI Screening in the Breeding Guidelines in it. So I will ask again ,was there a Discussion on this subject before the First Vote was taken. After reading Phyllis's Post ,this confirms my views, that the Club Members ,if there was no inital Discussion should have,been allowed to comment on whether ,at this moment in time ,when so little is known about the SM Problem ,both in Cavaliers and other Breeds,to the Breeding Guidelines for MRI Scanning being included. At the moment in the Data Base the Figures for the Genetic Research in Canada are,this was announced at a recent Chiari Conference in America,Number of Dogs with DNA 1546....540 CM/SM....385 MRI Scanned Confirmed....165 MRI Scanned Clear. Idon't know ,but probably those Figures will be from World Wide Dogs. There are now Legal Problems involved for the EBV Scheme ,also there is no Identification by Micro Chipping for the Cavaliers being presented for MRI Scanning are the Cavaliers that are said to be. This does not start until January 2110. There is so much confusion just now ,even amongst the Neurologists,surely it was better that the Cavalier Club Members at the AGM ,were not rushed into voting for some-thing that they were'nt given a chance to discuss. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 09:22 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    27

    It is not accurate to say that little is known about the SM problem'. Those of us who have been MRI scanning over the last 4 or 5 years have ourselves learned a great deal about the problem within our own stock and have passed on this information to the researchers. Using the Guidelines and with the help of the Estimated Breeding Values, I am happy to report that I have managed to improve my results from an affected foundation bitch - who was MRI'd at 12 years old, with an Aneasthetist present, and suffered no ill effects - to an all-clear litter, after 4 generations. The system works, but, as they say "you have to be in it to win it" - if you do not try, you will not succeed. I worry that those who have not tested, may, by the time they eventually start, find that it is too late for them. Also, it is not 'rocket science' to work out that the gene pool could be increased considerably if more stud dogs/brood bitches were tested.. Murphy

    Posted at 09:54 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Murphy | Report as inappropriate

    28

    About Syringomyelia (SM) and where Other Breeds have been mentioned having this, note this which is in the Dog World Griffon Bruxellois Breed Notes on Friday 9 January 2009: "It is Lee who has campaigned so long and hard to get us all to sit up and take notice of SM and she has all of her Griffons MRI scanned. Because of this she is able to do Grade A to Grade A matings and get Grade A progeny. Before you think it is easy to get Grade A etc, let me remind you that it was Lee who first ‘discovered’ SM in her stock and courageously brought our attention to it. She then decided that it was no good going out of Griffons as she liked them so much so she fought to eradicate the problem and hoped that we would all do the same. If only breeders in the past had been so open about their problems."

    Posted at 10:31 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    29

    The other Breeds mentioned at the Chiari Conference in America recently are.KING CHARLES SPANIELS, YORKSHIRE TERRIERS...STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIERS ,,,BOSTON BULL TERRIERS ...GRIFFON BRUXELLOIS...CHIHUAHUA...BICHON FRAISE... PODENGO PORTEGUESE PEQUENO...FRENCH BULL DOG I don't think you would need to be a Rocket Scientist to believe that all those Breeds of Dogs as well as Cavaliers ,who are suffering from SM ,must have a Common Denominator.It can't be the Chiari Bone ,since it was mentioned at the Conference ,that those Breeds also have Chiari Bones Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 10:54 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    30

    Bet Hargreaves of comment post 30. Do you think it might be a good idea if the Cavalier Clubs contacted the Griffon Bruxellois Breed Club, and particularly so Lee Pieterse in Australia who was mentioned in their Breed Notes, this to find out all the details concerning Syringomyelia (SM)that was mentioned in their Breed Notes as to what I posted here.

    Posted at 11:18 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    31

    I really do wish there was as much energy spent on Discussing the MVD Heart Problem which afflicts the Cavalier Breed ,the Kennel Club has recently said that MVD is by far the Biggest Killer for Cavaliers.The Cardiologist said at Sunday's AGM that 50 % of Cavaliers could have Heart Murmers by 5 years of Age,and that is despite Heart Testing for the last 20 years. Is this because there now be so many Carriers in the Cavalier Breed having the MVD GENE .To give Figures for this ,it could mean that if 100,000 Cavaliers are living to-day at 10 years of age here in Britain, that 50,000 of them could either have a Heart Murmer or a Serious Heart Condition. I think it's about time to get the SM Problem into a proper perspective' I am not playing down the SM problem ,but the SM Figures given in a recent SM Newsletter by a Neurologist here in Britain was 408 SM MRI confirmed Cases.I believe that was over a 11 year period. How does that compare to the Figures I gave, and the comments from the Cardiologist and the Kennel Club for the MVD Heart Problem in Cavaliers. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 11:45 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    32

    All that media training, bit of a waste of money if score own goals like this one. At the moment the grobal recession has an obvious priority for law makers everywhere but sometime soon they'll get back to dogs and dog breeding. At that point legally binding rules will be brought in that will stomp all over anything laid down by a breed club (or the KC). When that happens good, responsible breeders of the occasional litter might find it impossible to continue. I hope the members of Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club understand that those laws will be drafted in response to breeders like them. We reform or have reform forced on us. That is the ONLY choice.

    Posted at 11:49 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    convict 225 | Report as inappropriate

    33

    There is a message about the AGM from the Cavalier Club Chairman on... http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html.... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 12:03 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    34

    In response to Bolshie you cannot say the SM isn't a problem until a larger % of dogs are testd. The figures mean nothing as they are at the moment. Yes Cavaliers have a serious heart problem within the breed but that doesn't mean that other issues shouldn't be dealt with as they appear because getting in early means the problem will be less of an issue. The only reason heart problems became so prevelant is because it wasn't taken seriously at the beginning or breeders weren't open and honest about what they have produced right at the start. There really is little to be gained by waiting until it is a problem before doing anything. Eradication should be any breeds priority as soon as the problem is known.

    Posted at 12:08 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    35

    It is wholly irresponsible for any breeder not to test for ANY known genetic defect, if it was up to me it would also be made illegal. This goes for any breeder of any animal , we all have a duty of care towards what we produce, isnt it time enforcement action was introduced by the KC. The ABS has many breeders who still refuse to test for known conditions, some scheme that is !

    Posted at 12:19 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Fifi | Report as inappropriate

    36

    One has to feel very sorry for Lesley Jupp and the committee of the CKCS club. They have taken a lot of flack over this whole business, some of it perhaps deserved, and when they try to push the club forward they are defeated by the dinosaurs. Mrs Jupp's statement on the club website says it all.

    Posted at 12:42 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    37

    Thankyou for the link Mary - may I suggest that everyone reads Lesley Jupps comments and I must say that the Cavi people need a huge kick up the butt in my opinion - if they continue in the current vein they will have to have testing forced on them because at the moment they appear to be nothing more than breeders that do not to care for the welfare of their dogs or the puppies they produce - they should be hanging their heads in shame but what really angers me is that the general public may well assume that all breeders of dogs are like the cavie breeders and we are not. Come on Kennel Club is it not about time that standards and testing were imposed not requested. The KC registration should be a mark of quality and it is not.

    Posted at 13:14 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    hounder | Report as inappropriate

    38

    I've read Lesley Jupps statement and I have to say I feel very sorry for her, and the committee, for what has happened. It is apparent that there is a lot of sadness in her statement at this very sorry state of affairs.

    Posted at 13:39 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    39

    Hounder: "general public may well assume that all breeders of dogs are like the cavie breeders and we are not." NOT ALL OF US !!!!!!!

    Posted at 14:30 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Marmar | Report as inappropriate

    40

    Marmar, I understand and feel your frustration, but, remember not all Cavalier breeders should be tarred with the same brush. Murphy

    Posted at 15:14 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Murphy | Report as inappropriate

    41

    Precisely what I said.....Not all of us!!!.......................I refuse to be lumped in with those who wish to ruin all the good work done by decent people for health of our lovely little dogs.

    Posted at 15:45 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Marmar | Report as inappropriate

    42

    Having read the UK CKCS Club's Chairman's Report, all I can say is that Mandatory Heart Testing for Cavaliers can't come soon enough .I have been saying this for tha past 20 years, that no mating should take place if a Cavalier has any sign of Heart Trouble. The question I have about SM ,is why is it in other Breeds of Dogs,until that answer, is found ,I am sitting on the Fence,

    Posted at 17:06 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    43

    Marmar. Did you go to the meeting to have a voice? And exactly what do you mean by "those who wish to ruin all the good work done by decent people for health of our lovely little dogs" What part of the cavalier owning public do you see as fitting that description?

    Posted at 17:34 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    missj | Report as inappropriate

    44

    missj...and you are?

    Posted at 18:09 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Marmar | Report as inappropriate

    45

    Lover of the breed. Is the question a difficult one? J. Alexander

    Posted at 18:20 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    missj | Report as inappropriate

    46

    Three articles that sum up what has been happening in Cavaliers.... Perhaps it is time to start changing things..... http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html..... http://devinefarm.net/rp/rpostr.htm....... http://devinefarm.net/rp/biggest.htm...... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 18:22 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    47

    Excellent links - and oh, how true!

    Posted at 18:31 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    48

    Agree, have just finished reading them myself, sadly have to say it applies to breeders from many, if not all, breeds.

    Posted at 18:38 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    49

    We've just bought a gorgeous Ruby Cavalier puppy dog, he comes from a breeder who only uses MRI scanned normal(not clear but clinically normal)stud dogs & has all her bitches MRI scanned before even looking for a stud dog for them. At this moment in time scanning is all we have. Both parents are over 2 1/2 years of age(in this case the dog is over 5 years old)with currently normal hearts(again not clear hearts as there is no DNA test to show if the dogs are "clear"of any gene related to MVD)& they both have normal eye certificates. The grand parents are also scanned normal & eye/heart tested normal & over 5 years of age. The members of the CKCS club who voted against the Code of Ethics change have only one thing in their hearts-themselves-they do not really care about the breed & anyone using the GA/sedation link claim to MVD needs to step up to the plate with scientific proof. Over the past 40 years in Germany more GSDs have been x rayed under GA/sedation that Cavaliers alive at this time. They are a breed that also has a known heart problem(there is a drug on the market that was developed for heart treatment in Dobermanns & GSDs that is now used to treat Cavaliers with MVD) The heart problem occurs in a higher percentage of dogs that have not come from health screened parents(so they will not have undergone GA/sedation & the dogs themselves have not been health tested under GA/sedation either) I also have Border Collies & when Glaucoma was found in related dogs what do the Border Collie breeders(of all types-working, show, obedience)do-vilify the dogs & their breeders ? No they start testing related dogs & funding/supplying DNA samples for research(which is already under way)They publish the results of the Gonioscopy testing on the internet & set up a database. At the moment only close relations of the affected dogs are being tested & blood sampled-what a difference to the Cavalier club members. Epilepsy in some related BCs & WSD is also being researched & breeders who have puppies who develop epilepsy are also upfront. There's probably the biggest breed database which shows all the DNA test results & also possible genetic make up of ancestors who are no longer alive & who lived before the DNA tests where available for Border Collies. How sad that the members opted to vote against the change, good job there are better breeders who do have a deep care of the breed after all we are only the custodians of the breed for the future..

    Posted at 18:49 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Joedeeuk | Report as inappropriate

    50

    Missj : A lover of the breed - well we have something in common..." What part of the cavalier owning public do you see as fitting that description?"..... A dog breeder of many years standing who has always health tested my dogs and continue to do so.

    Posted at 19:12 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Marmar | Report as inappropriate

    51

    Marmar. You misunderstood what I was asking. This was the part I wanted clarified. "those who wish to ruin all the good work" Which part of the Cavalier owning public have you in mind?

    Posted at 22:10 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    missj | Report as inappropriate

    52

    WELL WELL WELL, so its not only the "older" pekingese people who are bitter and twisted and wont do anything about health testing ( unless its free) They tore the breeds health scheme and committee apart and the KC allowed it by waffling on about all the breeders where now in agreement ( no such thing has happened) , the only agreement between that lot was to bury it FAST ! Dont be doing this to your breed you make good money out of them PUT SOME BACK INTO THE BREED !

    Posted at 23:56 on 26 Mar 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    53

    Nemesis, do you think it is just the 'older' breeders who want to pretend nothing is going on or is their an element of people sticking together who have certain 'lines' regardless as to their generation? I have to say I know a goodly proportion of long time breeders who have embraced testing in my breed but equally there are many who don't. I don't think I've come across too many younger people in breeds who don't agree with testing. In fact the major bunch of people, regardless as to age, who don't test are those churning out crosses. Don't forget everyone to put in you tuppenny's worth in the Dog Breeding Enquiry. They appear to have extended the deadline to the 19th May.

    Posted at 09:21 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    54

    Joedeeuk, There have been reports of a number of Cavaliers who have died under an Anaesthetic ,or developed a Heart a Murmer after being given one. This is what I have said ,often ,there has been NO RESEARCH asto the Long Term Effects of Sedation /Anaesthetics given to Cavaliers for MRI Scanning You seem to be unaware that the Cavalier Breed is the only DOG BREED to develope MVD at such a early age. Who knows what could happen because of this ,that the Anaesthetics for the MRI Scanning could even make the MVD Problem appear even earlier for our Breed. Perhaps you could tell me Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 11:17 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    55

    The Cavalier Club's Chairman, Mrs. Lesley Jupp, said in one part of her statement regarding the AGM "Benchmark Weekend": "There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible." I would like to thank Mrs. Jupp for her honesty and integrity. She surely has proven that her loyalty is to the breed itself and her priority is to ensure the future of the cavalier, by whatever means are necessary. I sincerely hope that all of the members of the Cavalier Club will take her words to heart and cooperate fully in the future. Abraham Lincoln said: "There are no accidents in my philosophy. Every effect must have its cause. The past is the cause of the present, and the present will be the cause of the future. All these are links in the endless chain stretching from the finite to the infinite."

    Posted at 12:15 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Freedonian | Report as inappropriate

    56

    Have any of you knee-jerk commenters ever heard the expression "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"? Was there another proposal put to the AGM? What was Mrs Jupp's Committee's reaction to that one?

    Posted at 16:18 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    swanson | Report as inappropriate

    57

    Swanson, why don't you explain the WHOLE story then? Here is your chance since no one else is talking.

    Posted at 16:30 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    chloe92us | Report as inappropriate

    58

    Yes come on then Swanson - explain the whole story to us knee-jerk commenters we are waiting

    Posted at 16:45 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    hounder | Report as inappropriate

    59

    >There have been reports of a number of Cavaliers who have died under an Anaesthetic ,or developed a Heart a Murmer after being given one. This is what I have said ,often ,there has been NO RESEARCH asto the Long Term Effects of Sedation /Anaesthetics given to Cavaliers for MRI Scanning You seem to be unaware that the Cavalier Breed is the only DOG BREED to develope MVD at such a early age.< Reports ?? Do you mean scientific reports ? Vets reports ? Heresay ? I've asked you for this information before, sadly I am still waiting for the answer. Anecdotal stories of MVD developing after GA/Sedation are not enough, What about the 100s of Cavalier dogs & bitches that are neutered ? Have they been affected ? MRI scanning is only one of many veterinary procedures that involve GA/Sedation-are you saying that only the MRI scans procedures cause MVD ????? Shouldn't you focus on any operations/procedures that involve GA/sedation ? Which would mean hip scoring as well-should Cavaliers not be hip scored ??? No C sections, no spay/castrations or any other operations on Cavaliers at all ????? You clearly have not thought this latest anti scanning stance out fully I've got two Cavaliers 9 & 7 years of age, with clear hearts-but sadly they both have SM

    Posted at 16:54 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Joedeeuk | Report as inappropriate

    60

    After an email i have just received today , i think we are all banging our heads against the wall, One Health testing scheme headed by Specialist veterinary surgeons and a fully backed health committee have been accused by the Kc and Ms Ruth Davis ( animal health trust ) of setting it up a smoke screen and that "they" will not talk to anyone concerned with that scheme and will do as their own advisors tell them. If any of you are genuine in your concerns for the health of your breeds then the ony alternative is to break away from the KC , mind you most wouldnt the CCs are far too important to most are they not?

    Posted at 17:16 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    61

    Joedeeuk, This is what I am saying that Research should be carried out to find the Figures of Cavaliers who have died as a Result of Anaesthetics.I am not saying that MRI Scanning procedures are causing MVD. I have not got an Anti Scanning Stance,but,if for Some Cavaliers ,they could be at risk from the Anaesthetics because of MRI Scanning ,then this should be considered, along with the thought that could the Anaesthetics for MRI Scanning ,cause the MVD Heart Problem to make an earlier appearance than 3 years ,which it does for our Breed.I don't think you can bring necessary operations requiring Anaesthetics into this discussion .I am sorry to hear about your SM Cavaliers, but we have had 4 Cavaliers who died in their sleep at 6-7 years of age from their Heart Problem, another Cavalier Sweep ,died at 4, Ailsa,7 when she had to go to the Vets to be put to sleep, her wee head had to be held up so that she was able to breath.At the moment so little is known about SM ,but the Kennel Club has said recently ,that by far the Biggest Killer for Cavaliers , is their Heart Trouble OH YES ,Joedeeuk ,I sure have thought through about what I am saying about the MVD Heart Trouble that afflicts the Breed ,that about 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmer by 5 years of age, that of the 11,000 Cavaliers Registered by the KC last year, in 5 years time there could be 6,000 of them having a Heart Murmer ,that many die between 7-8 years of age ,that it was said at the CKCS Club AGM on Sunday by the Cardiologist ,that the Heart Trouble is no better in the Breed than it was 20 years ago, even with Heart Testing ,so who can say MRI Scanning will improve the SM Problem. Bet Hargreaves Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 17:41 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    62

    Most of us, whatever our breed, genuinely want to breed happy, healthy dogs. Yes, there is a hardcore who are more concerned with money - or show wins - and therefore are prepared to cut corners as far as health is concerned. We can put up a united fight if we know the facts - not the hints about this club or that health problem that is being swept under the carpet. Instead of innuendo let's have facts. Come on Nemesis and Swanson. We are happy to support you if we have proof.

    Posted at 18:00 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    63

    Swanson, however you fold it, the breed that caused the most outcry on a BBC expose on pedigree dogs, an expose that has had an enormous knock on effect for the dog world as a whole... Came away from an AGM without even adding testing for the disease that was highlighted to it's "guidelines". Not mandatory, but guidelines!!! Have you any idea how you look right now? Convict was right, money spent on teaching you PR was wasted. Regardless of any alternative deal you tried to thrash out, some of you have come away looking as bad as you did on Pedigree dogs exposed, and trust me, that was pretty bad.

    Posted at 18:16 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    64

    In regards to health problem involving Cavaliers I think we all might get an idea of what's going on from the Cavalier Club Chairman's report:- "Before the AGM last Sunday, Simon Swift, Cardiologist, gave a talk to members to inform us of the present situation, current research and to update us on the new BVA/KC heart testing scheme that involves a number of breeds including cavaliers. His talk was attended by about 25 members, including the committee, out of a current total UK membership of 1050. At the end of his talk Simon had difficulty in leaving the room for the throng of other members waiting outside for the AGM, chatting and drinking coffee, whiling away the time until his talk was over. So much for breeders’ interest in, and concern for heart problems within the breed. The AGM then followed, attended by 63 members. The agenda contained a proposal from the committee that the Code of Ethics should include the recommended breeding guidelines for SM. These are not mandatory rules, merely recommendations, and would have been in line with Hearts and Eyes breeding guidelines, which have been in place for some years. These proposals seemed to me to be innocuous and reasonable. However, the proposal was substantially defeated by the meeting. This was a triumph by the members present over neurologists and geneticists, and of course, over the committee. It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day. There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible. Mrs Lesley Jupp 24th March 2009" This was copied from this address on the Club's website. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/events/reports/agm/post_agm_09.html

    Posted at 18:28 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    65

    Kaleta, If you took the trouble to look at the Cavalier Club website, you will see that the guidelines regarding SM remain as before and unaltered. There was no suggestion at the AGM that this should be changed. The concern was the manner in which the meeting was prepared for and run. Kaleta and Convict 225. The PR money spent by the club was to train the committee members how to deal with the media. This money was clearly not wasted as far as Mrs Jupp is concerned. She has now become a spin doctor par excellence, with the cryptic comments to the press and the untrue statements on the club website. She has clearly decided that her position of chairman is no longer to represent the members but is a base from which she can project her own personal views and launch attacks. Didn't a similar situation occur in PDE? Another one to "spit the dummy". Rildey, you had no problem making condemnatory comments at "Comment 37". Are you having second thoughts now? You also mention"sweeping under the carpet"and concern about "money and show wins". Add to that "power and control". The cavalier club committee must have a pretty big carpet to hide its secrets!

    Posted at 18:59 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    swanson | Report as inappropriate

    66

    Could I answer Ridley,I am not a Cavalier Breeder ,been a Cavalier Pet owner for aroud 30 years. 1 The Figures of SM in the Cavalier Breed were exaggerated in the PDE TV FILM, it was claimed that a third of the Cavalier Population suffered from SM.that would mean about 30,000 ,It now has turned out that it was a third of Clinical Cases seen by a Neurologist that suffered from SM .2 SM is NOT CONFINED to Cavaliers ,it is in other Breeds as well.3 .The claim that Cavaliers have Large Brains .There is NO Scientific Information to confirm this just now, the Research is being carried out in America to discover whether the Brains are Larger than those of other Breeds.What was needed at the AGM was all this to be discussed ,also that A to A MRI Matings of Cavaliers ,some are still producing off-springs with SM ,that about 10 other Breeds of Dogs have a Chiari Malformed Bone, this was recently said at a Chiari Conference in America, that whether SM is Hereditary or not is open to question, it was claimed that 6-8 Gr-Gr- Grand-Parents of Affected SM Cavaliers went back to a particular Cavalier Bitch born in the 1950's ,but so do 6-8 Gr- Gr- Gr -Parents of MRI Scanned ,unaffected Cavaliers, a Geneticist has said that this would probably be because the Cavalier Bitch was influential for the Cavalier Breed ,and most Cavaliers would go back to her .BUT the biggest quandary the Cavalier Breeders have at the moment, is that , even the Neurologists here in Britain don't seem to be able to agree about the SM Problem.I just don't think that the CKCS Members can be blamed for the stance they took on Sunday ,when there is so much not known about SM .There is to be a CKCS CLUB LIAISON Meeting in a couple of Months, so perhaps every-thing will be ironed out then. SM has never been swept under the Carpet by the Cavalier Breeders ,it is just a few folk who have claimed this ,with their exaggerated claims ,and no true facts have ever been forth- coming ,Even the Veterinary Profession say they are just not seeing many Cavaliers with SM Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 19:01 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    67

    Swanson, perhaps you missed the question. What can you tell us that we don't already know? We KNOW that the SM guidelines remain unchanged...because the vote to amend them was not passed! Here is a quote from the website regarding the AGM. Notice the FUTURE TENSE used in the verbage. "The committee are hoping that you will vote today to include Appendix C in our Code of Ethics. This will insert the guideline that dogs and bitches to be used for breeding should be MRI scanned. It is anticipated that these guidelines will be updated as research and the new MRI Scanning scheme are incorporated. The Club has written Letters of Support to the Kennel Club Charitable Trust for Sarah Blott who wishes to conduct research to establish more accurate figures for the incidence of Syringomyelia. It has also written a letter of support to the Kennel Club Charitable Trust for further funding for Dr Brendan Corcoran at Edinburgh University continuing his research into Mitral Valve Structure. This was to be a GUIDELINE, much like the MVD protocol, not a requirement. So, Swanson, tell us something we don't know.

    Posted at 19:15 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    chloe92us | Report as inappropriate

    68

    Bet, for the last time...PLEASE...Clare's quote about trying to squeeze a size 10 foot into a size 8 shoe, or whatever the exact sizes were...DID NOT IMPLY CAVALIERS BRAINS WERE BIGGER THAN OTHER BREEDS! SHE MEANS THEIR HEADS ARE TOO SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted at 19:18 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    chloe92us | Report as inappropriate

    69

    The AHT's Sarah Blott will be starting her Estimated Breeding Values (EBV) program, and this major new initiative funded by the Kennel Club Charitable Trust. Sarah Blott is doing a tour of the Cavalier Clubs to do talks about her EBV program and to answer questions. Already there have been calls to send in Health Test Results and to provide DNA Buccal Cheek Swabs. I think that down the track it will be interesting to read her Reports on how her program is going. Those here who don't know about this program here is an address for information, and on the page there click on the arrow buttons. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/intro.html

    Posted at 19:30 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    70

    Bet, this has been posted numerous times, but once again just for you from this study published in March, but presented in Nov 2007: "CKCSs had a shallower caudal cranial fossa and abnormalities of the occipital bone, compared with those of mesaticephalic dogs. These changes were more severe in CKCSs with syringomyelia"http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...urnalCode=ajvr"

    Posted at 19:34 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Winnie | Report as inappropriate

    71

    I messed up that url. This one should work.http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.70.3.340?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ajvr

    Posted at 19:35 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Winnie | Report as inappropriate

    72

    Lets deal with the facts here, it is known that SM has been discovered in some cavaliers. The numbers may not be large and many who have it may not suffer at all. It may not be known as to whether it is hereditary or not. However, none of these facts means that nothing should be done. If scanning is the only way to try to see if there is a problem then it should be done to prevent this becoming a big issue like the heart problems suffered by Cavaliers.

    Posted at 19:45 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    73

    One can only hope that when Sarah Blott visits the Clubs she does not meet the same indifference that Simon Swift, Cardiologist, met at the AGM. How outstandingly rude his reception there and how sad for the CKCS.

    Posted at 19:52 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Patz | Report as inappropriate

    74

    Yes the AHT and Sarah Blott wishes to conduct research to establish more accurate figures for the incidence of Syringomyelia and even Mitral Valve Disease. This down the track will be clearly seen by Sarah Blott in her EBV program and it is based on Health Test Results, and particularly so when Genetic Studies in Canada are completed and included in the program as Genomic Breeding Values. Funding for the Genetic Studies in Cavaliers have been provided by the American Cavalier Clubs and the American Kennel Club Health Foundation.

    Posted at 19:52 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    75

    To Chloe92US in sunny Florida, You ask to be told something you don't know. Well with the greatest respect, what you don't know is "what you are talking about". There was no vote or proposal to change the SM guidelines. Perhaps before rushing to judgement you should find out the facts. To Quincy down under in Australia, perhaps you can tell Patz from wherever, that Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis has already spoken to breeders that Mrs Jupp treats with such derision plus other interested parties in North, South, West and East of England. All their talks were well attended and she was treated with the utmost courtesy by enquiring audiences. The overall message being that the EBVs will be an additional tool to use in considering breeding, but clearly not a universal panacea. Their latest talk will be in Scotland on Sunday and I hope that the most prominent and prolific commenter here will make the effort to attend and put her many questions to them

    Posted at 20:27 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    swanson | Report as inappropriate

    76

    Swanson, so what you're saying is that your breed club committee were asking you to vote for something that is already in place? Why would they do that? If those guidelines are already in place, then why all the reaction? What was it about this meeting that caused this concern? What was wrong with the way it was run?

    Posted at 20:31 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    77

    Swanson, I'm asking YOU to explain to all of us what happened exactly. Were you even at the meeting?

    Posted at 20:43 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    chloe92us | Report as inappropriate

    78

    From what I hear the Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis the talks were well attended, and this was recently mentioned on the Clubs website:- "This Club (and the Regional Clubs) have given out many DNA swabs to owners and breeders for the Animal Health Trust Research being run by Sarah Blott. These swabs are being stored at the AHT until such time as the SM or MVD genes have been identified. The Club is also encouraging Owners and breeders to send their MRI scans and MVD heart certificates to Sarah Blott as input to the Estimated Breeding Value Program. Just a reminder that between all the Clubs 1000 swabs have been distributed to cavalier owners but so far only about 200 have been returned to the AHT, so if they are sitting in your cupboard please do the swabbing and post back to the Animal Health Trust. Sarah Blott has given talks all around the country (organised by the regional Clubs) and we will be organising two more in the Autumn in areas where there has not been a talk nearby." Also for the Genetic Research they are still requesting what is mentioned at this address:- http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

    Posted at 21:03 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    79

    I have now taken the trouble to look at the cavalier club site. Could someone point out to me where the guidelines regarding SM are? I've looked at all the code of ethics, did i miss something?

    Posted at 21:12 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    80

    At present only eye and heart screening is advised but the vote at the meeting was to include SM recommendations to the Code of ethics.

    Posted at 21:33 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Marmar | Report as inappropriate

    81

    Well I'm still learning, and what are the Guidelines regarding SM? I do know that for years this has been on the Club's website, and where the "Code B" was ammended out quite some time ago. For the CKCS MRI screening and breeding recommendations dated January 2007 see at this address:- http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/guide.html

    Posted at 21:34 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    82

    Kaleta, for the protocols: from the front page of the UK Club site, on the left side bar under Cavalier Health there is a link to “syringomyelia”. Click on it and there is a syringomyelia page that comes up. The protocols are under the heading titled “MRI Screening and Breeding Recommendations - January 2007”. (Click on the blue arrow to read the page).

    Posted at 21:36 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Winnie | Report as inappropriate

    83

    Kaleta..... The recommendations are not with the Code of Ethics and, despite the Cavalier Club committee's proposal, they will not be added because some of the top cavalier breeders decided they would not let it happen..... To read the guidelines go to www.thecavalierclub.co.uk....click onto cavalier health....then into syringomyelia...You will see MRI screening & breeding recommendations, January 2007 half way down the list...... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 21:36 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    84

    Marmar thanks, so the vote at the meeting was to include SM recommendations to the Code of ethics. Regarding the AGM I think there was reference to "Annex or Appendix C", maybe some clarification needed, does that mean the Appendix C via this address where that at the moment appears to be only about MVD. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/club/Ethform.html

    Posted at 21:44 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    85

    Thankyou people. I did see the section on SM i just missed that bit. Quite honestly, i think that does need to be in the code of ethics and i really can't see why that was or ever became a big deal.

    Posted at 21:50 on 27 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    86

    Ridley, Its the Pekingese health Committee, they where set up from Volunteers at a meeting of all the breeds clubs, within 2 moths the "opposition" had started rubbishing everything that was done, Including health survey etc and the findings where collated by a Very good vet . The opposition Called Them liars publicly , One poor guy had a pubic vote of no confidence levelled at him at the Midland counties Ch show, without being allowed to defend himself, they told the Kc lies and misled them , they ( the KC believed them ) led by a vet and a few KC committee members with hidden agendas the health scheme was torn apart , now it has come to light that the KC and that AHT vet say it was all a smoke screen Here is the health committee website see for yourself if its a smokescreen. www.freewebs.com/pekingesehealth They have also had to start their own breed notes website because the breed not writers in both papers will not give unbiased info about any of the health issues . www.pekingesebreednotes.webs.com

    Posted at 02:16 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    87

    May i throw something into the forum here , i have infromation from a very prominent breeder in the USA , she has toy dogs and bred and still owns Bernese Mountain dogs , she was also a veterinary Nurse, she states that a proprtion ( my words) of Bernese in the US suffer from syringomyelia , now how can this be ? The main statement about this terrible affliction is about the skull being too small or the brain being too big ( Hmm not so sure about that one ) Correct me here but hasnt the Brenese got a MASSIVE Skull ???????? Someone please explain this anomaly .

    Posted at 02:23 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    88

    OOps the piece about the Pekingese breed notes reads badly , i makes it looklike it wasthe health committee that started off the breed notes website, sorry all, it wasnt them , i fact no one knows hwo started it off . Just though i better make that clear .

    Posted at 02:27 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Nemesis | Report as inappropriate

    89

    Nemesis, it is about the RATIO of the brain to the skull size. I can't understand why that is so difficult to figure out!http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#Morphology_of_the_Caudal "Factors associated with the presence of neurologic signs included syringohydromyelia and the ratio of caudal fossa/total cranial cavity volume"

    Posted at 03:30 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Winnie | Report as inappropriate

    90

    As per the above study statement, if the caudal fossa (back skull) is small in relation to the rest of the cranial cavity of an individual dog, then there seems to be an increased risk of neurological signs of SM.

    Posted at 03:34 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Winnie | Report as inappropriate

    91

    Swanson,I really don't know what to do about to-morrow,what I am so disappointed about with all the discussions,is that the most serious ,and has been for many,many years ,is the MVD Heart Problem that afflicts the Cavalier Breed.As the Cardiologist said at the CKCS Club's AGM .50% 0f Cavaliers have a Heart Murmer at 5 years of age, that the problem is no better than it was 20 years ago ,with all the Heart Testing.Now if Dr Blott were to be giving her lecture to-morrow,on what I consider to be a Priority for the Cavalier Breed , the MVD Problem ,nothing would hold me back from going, but sadly that won't be the case. Is all the publicity given about SM in the Cavalier Breed ,just because, those owners have not had the Many Tears and Heart Ache of having a Cavalier suffer and die at a young age from MVD ,which ,and I will repeat it again, the Kennel Club has said is the Biggest Killer for the Cavalier Breed. In the KC/BVA Health Survey is 42%. Neurological Problems 2%. including SM.If last week's AGM caused trouble, what do you think would happen to-morrow ,if I got started ,saying that the MVD Condition is being ignored !!I guess I'd better stay at home! Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 08:31 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    92

    reply to post 18 Hi Phyllis I think more to the point is would you mate two dogs together with light eyes or gay tails. Then why not find out if you are doing the same with SM. Sue

    Posted at 08:31 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Sue123 | Report as inappropriate

    93

    sorry that last post should have been in reply to post 19.Sue

    Posted at 08:32 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Sue123 | Report as inappropriate

    94

    Forgot to say in Post 92, that the questions I would liked answered could only be given by a Vet or a Neurologist , since Dr Blott has said that she is neither ,so all the more reason for me staying at home. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 09:31 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    95

    Bet why stay at home and not go to Sarah's talks at the Club, and I think that you know that Sarah Blott is including MVD in the Estimated Breeding Values (EBV) program, this can be read on several documents on the club's website, so Bet is MVD going to be ignored in the EBV program? On the Club's website this is the latest mention in February 2009:- "The team at the AHT are now working on the development of EBVs for MVD. These are based on the database of heart screening results maintained by the CKCS Club / University of Liverpool and MVD Heart Certificates (yellow forms) that Sarah has so far received from individual owners of Cavaliers." Yes Bet and this copied from this address:- http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/feb_09_update.html

    Posted at 10:00 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    96

    Bet, maybe the Cavalier Clubs could arrange a Neurologist talk and question meeting. Neurologists tend to be quite busy, and after hearing what happened at the AGM with Cardiac Specialist Simon Swift and on how many attended there I think maybe future similar talks and question meetings with Specialists might be difficult to arrange.

    Posted at 10:46 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    97

    Bet - I will be going to hear Dr Blott tomorrow - sorry you won't be there for our usual frank (and friendly) discussion of our views. I would like to know exactly what the difference is between.1 Code of Ethics, 2,. recommendations and 3. Guidelines. I would also like to know how testing could ever be made 'mandatory.' Pat Morris

    Posted at 10:46 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    PM | Report as inappropriate

    98

    Pat please later post and let us know, I certainly would love to hear.

    Posted at 11:11 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    99

    The KC is a self confessed toothless watchdog when it comes to self-regulation....... A cavalier owner wrote to the Kennel Club about the the Club AGM & this is part of the reply they received.........."Thank you for your email. I have to agree with you, this is a most unfortunate decision, but it really demonstrates the difficult position the KC finds itself in. There is absolutely no compulsion for anyone to register their dogs with the Kennel Club and so this really limits what we can do. It is certainly true that the KC could require that Cavalier breeders can only register dogs from parents that have been scanned with an MRI. Unfortunately, I doubt that this would force the people who voted against this proposition to use MRI scanning. The limited value of a KC registration to them would not force them to use MRI scanning. So, this means that if the KC did adopt such a position, the ‘quality’ of Cavaliers on the database would improve, but these would represent a very reduced number of Cavaliers. Those people that voted against this proposition would still continue to breed Cavaliers, but now outside of any influence that the KC might exert. The solution lies in working with these breeders to ensure that they see the sense in MRI scanning, and that has to be down to encouragement and education.".............. The KC are too modest, these cavalier breeders are among the most successful in the UK, the person who proposed the amendment removing the SM guidelines from the CoE is the husband of the Dog World breed note writer. While the KC has a monopoly on licencing dog shows nobody who exhibits dogs would consider KC registration to be of limited value. Margaret Carter

    Posted at 13:19 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    100

    I wonder who at Liverpool University is involved with the Cavalier MVD Heart Problem.? Simon Swift is no longer there. Dr Peter Darke ,a Cardiologist ,about 30 years ago tried to warn the Cavalier World about the serious Heart problem ,affecting the Cavalier Breed. Recently Simon Swift said the same thing on the PDE TV Program. Remember the Lady on the Program who had spent £40,000 on her Cavaliers'Heart medication. I think the Heart Pills work out at around £1 a Pill. A Lotta Lotta Money . What would I learn to-morrow,no-body has a clue why SM is in other Breeds ,that would'nt get an answer. There is NO SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION about whether the Cavaliers' Brains are Larger than those of other Breeds ,this Research is on-going at the Moment in America. Maybe I would find out if SM is Hereditary ,as long as the information was'nt dependant on the 6-8 GR-GR -GR-Parents of SM Affected Cavaliers going back to the Cavalier Bitch Named and Shamed in the 1950's. The EBV Scheme has come up against Legal Problems ,I might find out what they are, and maybe discover why the Cheek Swabs are having to be stored till the Genes for CM/SM are found ,and what use they will be if the Cavaliers have died in the mean - time . No I think I am better at home. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 13:21 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    101

    Just read Cassandra's reply from the Kennel Club,am I the only Person who cares about the Cavalier Breed and their MVD Heart Problem ,Looks like it !!!!I rest my case. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 13:30 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    102

    Bolshie, the Cavalier does not have just ONE problem. It is wrong to concentrate on one and not on them all. If you want to go on a crusade about MVD then constantly lobby the KC and ALL Cavalier breeders to insist that they get their stock tested prior to registration and don't stop until it changes but remember you ignore other issues at the breeds peril. I've already read on pet forums that people are no longer having Cavaliers because of the health issues so it's about time ALL Cavalier breeders got their act together and start health testing religiously to resolve the problems or you may end up with no breed at all.

    Posted at 14:32 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    103

    Beckyness,go on a crusade about MVD ,you must be Joking !!! I don't know whether you have been involved with Cavaliers , if you have, you would know I have arguing about their Heart Problem for the Past 20 years.Long before SM was ever heard about, but now the discussions are all about SM ,not a Cheep about MVD!! Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 15:25 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    104

    Bet writes in #102: "... am I the only Person who cares about the Cavalier Breed and their MVD Heart Problem ,Looks like it !!!!I rest my case." -- Yes, Bet, YOU apparently are the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH who cares about MVD in the CKCS BUT who also has not read the transcript of the MVD breeding protocol symposium (actually there were two, one in UK and one in US) which explains when to test and when to breed. Just testing for murmurs and then breeding at any age those which pass the test, does not work, yet that is what you advocate. -- Rod Russell

    Posted at 16:23 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Rod | Report as inappropriate

    105

    Bet writes in #101: "There is NO SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION about whether the Cavaliers' Brains are Larger than those of other Breeds." -- That is true, because the premise is false. Like people's fingerprints, no two Cavaliers' brains are the same size, much less the entire breed having the same size brains. A typical Cavalier's brain is as large as it needs to be. The problem is that the back part of its skull is too small to fully house the brain. -- Rod Russell

    Posted at 16:27 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Rod | Report as inappropriate

    106

    Nemesis writes in #88: "... she states that a proprtion ( my words) of Bernese in the US suffer from syringomyelia , now how can this be ?" -- Different breeds have SM due to different reasons. SM in Cavaliers is due to Chiari-like malformation (CM). Large breeds which develop SM usually have spinal deformities. -- Rod Russell

    Posted at 16:33 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Rod | Report as inappropriate

    107

    Rod, It was mentioned at the Chiari Conference,in America, recently by the Geneticist in charge of the Genetic Research in Cavaliers in Canada, that there were about 10 Breeds of Dogs who also had the Chiari Like Malformation Hi words ,not mine. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 18:43 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    108

    Bet, Geneticist Dr. Guy Rouleau in his presentation at the 2008 Conference in America did NOT mention Bernese Mountain Dog. After talking about Cavaliers he then mentioned the other breeds and showed a slide, quote: "Other breeds affected with CM/SM. 45 samples from 9 other breeds affected with CM/SM: King Charles Spaniels, Yorkshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Boston Terrier, Griffon Bruxellois, Chihuahua, Bishon Fraise, Podengo Porteguese Pequeno, French Bulldog." I copied that particular slide and it's at this address. http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/SlideOtherBreeds.jpg

    Posted at 20:27 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    109

    The Kennel Club could require all Cavaliers exhibited at Championship shows to be MRI scanned as a condition of entry - that would start to bring the breeder/exhibitors to their senses.

    Posted at 21:00 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Yorkshireroots | Report as inappropriate

    110

    Yorkshireroots that maybe great for some conditions but SM and MVD can become apparent on MRI at later ages, so maybe the dogs parents might have to be tested as they at the time might be at an appropiate age for testing. Back on 11-Sep-08 the KC put this in a media release but as I have not heard any more since then I think they may have shelved it, "Veterinary Passport - We are also considering the introduction of a ‘Veterinary Passport’ before allowing certain breeds to compete at Kennel Club licensed dog shows. This would be designed specifically for particular breeds, confirming the status of a dog’s health and conformation in relation to certain prescribed aspects before they could be shown."

    Posted at 22:02 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    111

    Opps to my MVD above, well those here know what I mean and where different means of testing are used.

    Posted at 22:12 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    112

    Judges have not got X-Ray eyes, and maybe a Veterinary passport needs to be completed before confirming the title 'Champion' by the Kennel Club to show that the governing body has done all in its power to ensure only the healthiest dogs get the coveted title. This would really be a step forward.

    Posted at 22:24 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Yorkshireroots | Report as inappropriate

    113

    Yorkshireroots I'd love to see a "Veterinary Passport" system as to what the KC mentioned. Since September 08 has anyone heard anything from KC about it?

    Posted at 23:04 on 28 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    114

    Dr Rouleau ,did not mention Bernese Mountain Dogs, but he did say that other Breeds of Dogs that he mentioned having the Chiari Like malformation.That was the point I was making . Bet hargreaves

    Posted at 09:38 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    115

    No, Quincy, nothing more has been said about the idea of a veterinary passport for show dogs. Personally, I'd like to see such a scheme in operation for ALL show dogs.

    Posted at 09:50 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    116

    We seem to have strayed far and wide from the original report on the AGM. Is there anyone out there who can explain to me why anyone would vote against including a RECOMMENDATION to scan in the Code of Ethics? Those against scanning still don't need to do it!

    Posted at 09:53 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    117

    Bet yes he did mention the other breeds, and he even talked about humans. I think that when they find the genes in one then that's where they might start looking for the genes in the others but keeping in mind there maybe some differences and sort of think like when they found the genes for Type 1 Diabetes where there was some differences. I'm looking forward to seeing future video presentations from Geneticist Dr. Guy Rouleau, and the last I heard from Penny Knowler is they still need what's mentioned on the Club's website at this address. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

    Posted at 10:10 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    118

    I've heard there maybe another meeting where it will be discussed most likely 24th May 09, stay tuned as I think it may be mentioned later when things are organised and the venue booked.

    Posted at 10:24 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    119

    Thank you Quincy, At least we've got that cleared up ,that the Chiari Like Malformed Bones is in other Breeds, since they have been looking for the answer to THE CHIARI PROBLEM in Humans for over 70 years, and Mr Skerritt, Neurologist, has said that too much is being read into the Human Chiari Problem to compare it with Dogs,who are the Cavalier Breeders to believe. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 10:46 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    120

    Bet I heard Dr. Guy Rouleau mention "I am a Human Geneticist". Also he mentioned "provide us with a physiological relevant model and than perhaps the dog there is no real good animal model of chiari, of human chiari", and he added "in Montreal they are focusing on the dog", and he mentions 2 breeds they are focusing on are the Cavalier and Brussels Griffon.

    Posted at 11:11 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    121

    Quincy ,and I also heard Mr Skerritt Neurologist, say at his recent Seminar here in Scotland on the SM Problem in Cavaliers,that too much is being read into the informatiom from Human Chiari ,and transferring it to Dogs. And Cavalier Breeders are being blamed for being Confused !! Some -body must be wrong. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 11:37 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    122

    Bet I think you might be causing confusion in some people's minds by the many things you repetitively mention on email lists and forums. The Cavalier Club's website clearly mentions what the Researchers want, and for the Genetic Research to find the genes and which will greatly help Sarah Blott’s EBV program they are still waiting for what is mentioned at this address. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

    Posted at 11:49 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    123

    Don't blame for causing confusing , Quincy , are you now saying that Mr Skerritt ,Neurologist ,should'nt have said what he said ,are his views not to be believed . Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 11:56 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    124

    Most interesting to me in catching up on comments here is #100 which reads: "A cavalier owner wrote to the Kennel Club about the the Club AGM & this is part of the reply they received.........."Thank you for your email. I have to agree with you, this is a most unfortunate decision, but it really demonstrates the difficult position the KC finds itself in. There is absolutely no compulsion for anyone to register their dogs with the Kennel Club and so this really limits what we can do. IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE THAT THE KC COULD REQUIRE that Cavalier breeders can only register dogs from parents that HAVE BEEN SCANNED with an MRI. Unfortunately, I doubt that this would force the people who voted against this proposition to use MRI scanning. The limited value of a KC registration to them would not force them to use MRI scanning. So, this means that IF THE KC DID ADOPT SUCH A POSITION, the ‘QUALITY’ of Cavaliers on the database would IMPROVE, but these would represent a very reduced number of Cavaliers. Those people that voted against this proposition would still continue to breed Cavaliers, but now outside of any influence that the KC might exert. THE SOLUTION LIES IN WORKING WITH THESE BREEDERS TO ENSURE THAT THEY SEE THE SENSE IN MRI SCANNING, AND THAT HAS TO BE DOWN TO ENCOURAGEMENT AND EDUCATION."..................................... Now try to reconcile that with the Caroline Kisko's response to the RSPCA Scientific Report on Breeding in which she said, "THE KENNEL CLUB IS CONFIDENT that with the SUPPORT OF ITS KENNEL CLUB REGISTERED SPECIALIST BREED CLUBS, the veterinary profession and those animal welfare organisations that care about dogs - and with the sensible use of the available science and promotion of further scientific research, the healthy future of the vast majority of pedigree dogs in this country is assured.”...................... I next consider the frank statement made by the Cav Club Chairman. Mrs. Jupp did not mince her words. She said emphatically that the Cav Club is not capable of self-regulation...................................... So what I personally take away from the combination of concerned parties is that a clear and certain signal has now been given to the KC. Now it is their responsibility to step up ASAP and speak clearly on their expectations for the cavalier. What is not known to us is whether Caroline Kisko and the KC consider the cavalier to be part of the KC's self-determined grouping mentioned in her statement, the "VAST MAJORITY" (who have a KC future.) One can only wonder...

    Posted at 14:08 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Regina | Report as inappropriate

    125

    So that there is no confusion in what I mentioned earlier about Type 1 Diabetes (T1D). This study demonstrates that a number of the candidate genes previously associated with human T1D also appear to be associated with canine diabetes and identifies an IL-10 haplotype which is associated with diabetes in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. This suggests that canine diabetes is an excellent comparative and spontaneously occurring disease model of human T1D. See the Research Study at this address. http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/98/5/518

    Posted at 14:12 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    126

    I hope all Cavalier breeders and the Kennel Club read 'Regina's' excellent post no 125 I wonder what the Dog World breed correspondent makes of all this ?

    Posted at 15:18 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Yorkshireroots | Report as inappropriate

    127

    I have come back from the Seminar given here in Scotland by Dr S Blott and Dr T Lewis.Learned much from it. Bet Haregreaves

    Posted at 16:47 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    128

    Character assassination instead of sensible debate again......... I was asked to give CCs more than once but refused because I had become too disabled to judge a large entry of cavaliers at championship show level............ My champion was winning veteran classes at the age of ten at Crufts and the Cavalier Club show, he showed no signs of sickness, but unknown to me he did have SM. When he was eleven years old he started screaming with pain and was euthanised two months later when his back legs failed..This was in 2004, long before the low cost MRI scheme was started........£30,000 in stud fees......I wish....... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 17:02 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    129

    Seems to me that the only disgruntled person making a comment here is cavsrus. Were YOU at the meeting, cavsrus? If so, perhaps you would like to give your reasons why the suggested amendment to the CoE, recommending (not requiring) MRI scanning was defeated? Those of us in other breeds are desperately trying, but failing, to understand your attitude.

    Posted at 17:11 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    130

    Re post 129...... Hello Beckyess....You have it slightly wrong.. The "disgruntled woman" is suppose to refer to me.... I was the person who confirmed the BIS dog had SM..... Since I appeared on the PDE film there are periodic attempts at a smear campaign against me.......Post 128 is an example...... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 17:12 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    131

    Well Margaret I absolutely applaude your honestly. I;m currently trying to sort out health problems in my breed that are being brushed under the carpet so I know its not easy to "whistle blow". Incidentally, why on earth should somebody be vilified if what they are doing is for the betterment of the breed. I really think that the cavalier members/breeders who voted against this inclusion have shown themselves up for what they really are now. What future does this poor breed have if this is the support the breed club gets when it tries to make changes. The thing I've found about being involved in pedigree dogs is that a lot of people are frightened to admit that their dogs have health problems because of possible isolation or possibly being unable to breed and make money. It makes me sick to my stomach. Every time I see a cav now I remember that poor dog on PDE screaming in agony and Mrs Costello admitting that she had used her dog at stud many many times despite knowing that he had scanned positive for SM. Its not the breeders that live with the outcome, its the pet owners who love their dogs and are heartbroken when something like this happens. I know there are puppy farmers out there who don't health test - and I believe the KC needs to get a TV campaign up and running to educate the public on how to buy a dog - but these are members of a breed club who are supposed to have the best interests of the breed at heart. What chance does this breed have? They should hang their heads in shame rather than trying to put the blame at the feet of the one person who, despite perhaps making mistakes in the past, has woken up and smelt the coffee and then spilled the beans. Lots of breeds need somebody like that. The cavalier is not the only breed suffering at the hands of those trying to pretend these things are not happening. I would like to bet that my own breed will be riddled with health problems in 10 years time.

    Posted at 18:14 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    k9hpr | Report as inappropriate

    132

    I have thought for some years now that what has happened to Cavaliers will be happening to other breeds as well. There is systemic failure to protect the dogs from the suffering caused by inherited diseases and traits: breeders, breed clubs and the Kennel Club collude in an antiquated and self-serving world. What they all need to do when having meetings, discussing the issues, putting forward proposals and making decisions is to ask what is best for the dogs. If the dogs were put first always, there would be much less acrimony and reform would be easy. No doubt there are some excellent breed clubs in the UK and within every breeding community there will be some fine, principled and ethical breeders, as there are amongst Cavalier breeders. I would like to think that the tide is turning for this breed and that those breeders who genuinely love dogs and care about the breed as a whole will step up an take things forward.

    Posted at 19:18 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Carol F | Report as inappropriate

    133

    Margaret Carter, where you mentioned "Post 128 is an example" it appears that DogWorld may have deleted that post for some reason, and I noticed some other posts appear to have been deleted.

    Posted at 19:21 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    134

    Quincy, Thank you for pointing that out, perhaps I should cut and paste relevant sentences in future......You are right, some posts have been removed & numbers reallocated, which makes some comments now incomprehensible...... For those of an enquiring mind....The original post 128 referred to me as a disgruntled woman and the subsequent posts address that point...... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 20:21 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    135

    I too enjoyed Dr Blott and Dr Tom Lewis's excellent talk and presentation and explanation on EBVs-estimated breeding values- - and it seems to me that once up and running this MAY be the first really positive step in predicting future pups' health. It will NOT be perfect of course, nothing is - but it made a great deal of sense to me - and hopefully will prove a real way forward for the breed. They will eventually be able to give EBVs for every Cavalier in the UK (wherever they come from - good breeders, puppy farms etc) due to tracing DNAs etc from the information that breeders, and pet owners like me are able to give them via buccal swabs etc. EBVs will be based solely on the genetic make-up of dogs and will ignore any external or environmental factors - which makes a great deal of sense to me- as no two dogs have similar homes, diets, etc. EBVs will eventually be available to breeders who wish to choose the best mate for their stock with least possible health risks - and none of the info the team collects will be made public unless a waiver is eventually signed by the owner of the dog who may wish to place the dog on an EBV list. It will take time and there are obstacles to overcome - but I think at last this approach may well be the best one yet. Pat Morris.M.R.C.V.S (It was good to see you Bet !)

    Posted at 20:44 on 29 Mar 2009 by
    PM | Report as inappropriate

    136

    Thanks for clearing that up for me Margaret, makes perfect sense now. After all any club that get's rid of a member because they are willing to stand up and say what is really happening needs to take a good look at themselves. My personal belief is that to make any head way in combating these probelms the KC are going to have to make testing compulsory. As a start. I suppose, that before any dog can gain their Championship status they have to have had and passed the relevant health tests for their breed. That'll get things moving a lot quicker!

    Posted at 10:18 on 30 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    137

    Heart murmur? Well my cairn had a heart murmur at 4 years old onwards went on to have a primetra op and at age 10 a cancerous kidney removed, put down at 14yrs 6 months from liver failure. SO HEART MURMUR and anaesthetic bringing on heart failure bull it must be a genetical heart complaint. Paul

    Posted at 18:38 on 30 Mar 2009 by
    neutral | Report as inappropriate

    138

    How many Long Lived Cairns had your Cairn in his Pedigree Background ,that might have been to his advantage.I have Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers who developed an early Heart Murmer,lived onto a normal Old Age ,but had many Long Lived Ancestors. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 18:57 on 30 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    139

    I have just returned from a week away. I have been involved in the breed and show world for over 25 years. The documentary that aired on BBC 1 last year resulted in me becoming very interested in the Cavalier K C and I have my name on the waiting list of a good breeder for a show prospect. I don't understand why the proposal from the committee that the Code of Ethics should include the recommended breeding guidelines for SM. To those who attended the meeting omitted and voted against this what was to discuss? Shouldn’t you know the guidelines like the back of your hand because you are already following them (or not???!!!!) It is my intention to gleam as much information on the Cavalier as possible and I recently viewed a website on Cavaliers but was unhappy to see words "MRI CURSE" being used by a breeder. I do not believe the paltry excuses now being made for declining the vote. To Mrs Jupp I commend and respect you and the committee for your actions, please note that anyone with an ounce of sense will believe your report of what happened at the AGM and not the ulterior motives of the others. Steve M

    Posted at 22:01 on 30 Mar 2009 by
    Steve M | Report as inappropriate

    140

    Bravo, Steve! I do believe that the AGM vote might very well boil down to club politics............ (Bierce described politics as as "a strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.")... Perhaps "we" didn't understand that there are special people within the ranks of the cavalier club who know better and are therefore NOT PRIMARILY INTERESTED IN CKCS HEALTH? Is their status in the show scene more important than their dogs' health??? What else could we surmise from their actions?

    Posted at 00:20 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Regina | Report as inappropriate

    141

    Interesting that the person who proposed the amendment that led to the motion recommending that scanning be included in the CoE being defeated hasn't posted his reasons for so doing on here - although he is active on the Cavalier Breed Note comment column. Difficult to defend the indefensible?

    Posted at 07:37 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    142

    Could I mention ,I was not at the AGM ,but was at the one here in Scotland on Sunday ,and heard the Lecture given by Dr Blott and Dr Lewis.There was a question asked ,whether the MRI Scans being read by the Neurologists could tell if the Results were caused by Trauma ,and the answer was no. So the next question must be ,if that is not known ,then are Cavaliers with SM ,but the problem is caused by Trauma or whatever , their SM problem is not then Hereditary ,and their Families could not then be linked to the SM Problem .If I had been at the AGM ,and I am UK CKCS MEMBER I would have also voted NO. More needs to be being discussed about this, and I think ,before such an important step is taken ,it's better to have a full debate about all the Pros and Cons on the subject. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 10:03 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    143

    Presumably trauma sufficient to cause SM symptoms would also be severe enough to warrant veterinary treatment? Therefore there would be a record of it.

    Posted at 11:44 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    144

    With about 50% of the cavaliers going to the low cost MRI schemes showing up with SM ( and these are cavaliers without symptoms ) this must be the most accident prone breed ever....... Margaret Carter

    Posted at 12:05 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Cassandra | Report as inappropriate

    145

    From what I've heard Dr Blott and Dr Lewis are both Quantitative Geneticists for the EBV Program, and they want Cavalier Health Test Report Certificates issued by Neurologists and Cardiologists. By the way, if I had Trauma which caused neurological symptoms I think my doctor might send me to a Neurologist for examination and where various testings may be used.

    Posted at 12:51 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    146

    Bolshie, whilst there may be the odd case that is caused by trauma, that cannot be said for all cases, otherwise, as Margaret has said, Cavaliers must be one of the most accident prone breeds on the planet. It is still no excuse not to do it. The only way to be sure is to test.

    Posted at 14:27 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    beckyess | Report as inappropriate

    147

    Bet if they find the genes and develop a cost effective DNA test, would that let people know in their particular dog's case if it was due to genetic reasons. The Genetics Team do want the cheek swabs as mentioned on the Club's website, and they are still waiting for them and funding is available for the genetic research.

    Posted at 14:52 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate

    148

    According to Dr Marino ,Trauma is probably the most common Association with the Developement of a Syrinx. He has further said that the Chiari Malformation does not equate to SM ,which is a Neurological Condition caused by damage to the Nervous Tissue. He published this in the The Royal Spaniels 2007 Winter Edition. Bet Hargreaves

    Posted at 14:56 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    bolshie | Report as inappropriate

    149

    The thing that really bothers me about this whole thing is the KC response to a member of the Cav club. When are they going to stop with this nonsense about "losing" people! Losing people to what? As long as the KC hold those champ shows and CC's people aren't going anywhere. The kind of people that belong to kennel club recognised breed clubs are the kind of people who show dogs and people who show dogs are nothing without dog shows. Without dog shows all you are is another breeder on the free-ads. These people are not in it just for that. Without the competition there is nothing, they are nothing. Those who aren't bothered about registration are already long gone, the rest aren't going anywhere. To suggest that they are is utter garbage. What are they going to do with their dogs if they can't show them???? No ones hands are tied, the KC hold all the cards..... Green ones. He who holds the CC's holds the power!

    Posted at 15:45 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Kaleta | Report as inappropriate

    150

    Well said Kaleta!

    Posted at 16:00 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Rildey | Report as inappropriate

    151

    Bet from an AHT correspondence note this, quote: "In the first phase of the project we have worked with data collected by Dr Clare Rusbridge (Stone Lion Veterinary Centre) to demonstrate that syringomyelia is highly heritable. We are also working to establish the heritability of mitral valve disease using data collected by Mr Simon Swift (University of Liverpool Vet School) and The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club. We are developing a genetic evaluation scheme for both these diseases based on the estimation of breeding values." Bet see on the Cavalier Club's website at this address amd ask yourself why funding is available for this plus the genetic studies to find the genes from even the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation and American Cavalier Clubs. http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/call_for_data.html

    Posted at 16:10 on 31 Mar 2009 by
    Quincy | Report as inappropriate